SWAPA has a transition agreement

[jonjuan]

A cowboy, a priest and a hooker walked into a bar.................

Does the priest like little boys?

 

[PapaWoody]

Bobby,

Every recent arbitration award disagrees with you. Now, I know you don't fly for either airline (just like me), and you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe you should sign up to be an arbitrator. I know one side that would do anything to give you a shot at it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm not saying that a staple would be fair or equitable, but I will point out that you always seem to conveniently "forget" about the Chautaqua/Shuttle America arbitrated award, GL. Was recent, was a lot more similar to our situation than NW/DL, was arbitrated according to Allegheney/Mohawk, pay and benefit disparity was an issue, and the final result wasn't even close to relative seniority. But keep only including examples that support your assertion that "relative seniority is the law". And we'll keep disregarding every vitriolic thing you say. Deal? Deal. Good talk.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[gt1900]

I'm not saying that a staple would be fair or equitable, but I will point out that you always seem to conveniently "forget" about the Chautaqua/Shuttle America arbitrated award, GL. Was recent, was a lot more similar to our situation than NW/DL, was arbitrated according to Allegheney/Mohawk, pay and benefit disparity was an issue, and the final result wasn't even close to relative seniority. But keep only including examples that support your assertion that "relative seniority is the law". And we'll keep disregarding every vitriolic thing you say. Deal? Deal. Good talk.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Im an AAI guy, and to be perfectly honest, I would not mind if this entire thing went away. Im a pretty senior FO and this merger is going to hose my upgrade. As it stands now, I get whatever time off I need, get any vacation I need, and my quality of life is amazing. I averaged 17 days off last year and live very comfortbaly with my AAI pay... What do I want out of the merger? I want to keep my quality of life about the same. Relative seniority would do that. However, I also understand that we will be getting a pay raise, so we need to give somewhere. You need to remember that AAI was still growing, uprgrading, and hiring. Our career expectations were much faster then the guys at SWA. I think most AAI guys would be willing to give up "some" relative seniority. That would boost the seniority of EVER SWA pilot on property. Not only that, SWA is now growing, hiring, and taking AAI airplanes. All of those things help the SWA pilot group. Its not like you aren't gaining anything out of this merger. YOUR ARE. However, your contract isn't good enough for SWA pilots to get a windfall with seniority. SWA 8 year pay is $10/hr less then AAI's, and 9 year pay is $13/hr less then AAI. IVe said it before, if everyone comes to the table with a level head, this will work great, but if any one pilot group comes looking for a windfall, its going to get ugly. What your union is telling you about wages is very misleading. Yes, your average FO rate is probably $40 grand a year more then the average AAI FO, but the average SWA FO has also been at SWA a much longer then AAI. If you compare years of service, then that amount is much less, and in some cases, SWA is behind AAI.

 

[N1kawotg]

gt1900, what is the guarantee monthly hours at AT vs SWA. I think it 87 trips for pay at SWA while most say they do well over that. what's it at AT? If you are capped to say 70-75 hours isn't there a huge disparity paywise when you look beyond just the pay rate?

 

[airlinepilot]

Please post the rates of pay at AAI and the monthly guarantee? My buds at AAI tell me that we at SWA are paid a good deal more? Sooooo.....I am having a hard time understanding what they tell me vs. what you are posting??? I also understand our Med/dental insurance is much cheaper than yours. How much do you pay for a family of 4? We are self insured and our rates (I am told my the company/swapa) are some of the lowest.

Im an AAI guy, and to be perfectly honest, I would not mind if this entire thing went away. Im a pretty senior FO and this merger is going to hose my upgrade. As it stands now, I get whatever time off I need, get any vacation I need, and my quality of life is amazing. I averaged 17 days off last year and live very comfortbaly with my AAI pay... What do I want out of the merger? I want to keep my quality of life about the same. Relative seniority would do that. However, I also understand that we will be getting a pay raise, so we need to give somewhere. You need to remember that AAI was still growing, uprgrading, and hiring. Our career expectations were much faster then the guys at SWA. I think most AAI guys would be willing to give up "some" relative seniority. That would boost the seniority of EVER SWA pilot on property. Not only that, SWA is now growing, hiring, and taking AAI airplanes. All of those things help the SWA pilot group. Its not like you aren't gaining anything out of this merger. YOUR ARE. However, your contract isn't good enough for SWA pilots to get a windfall with seniority. SWA 8 year pay is $10/hr less then AAI's, and 9 year pay is $13/hr less then AAI. IVe said it before, if everyone comes to the table with a level head, this will work great, but if any one pilot group comes looking for a windfall, its going to get ugly. What your union is telling you about wages is very misleading. Yes, your average FO rate is probably $40 grand a year more then the average AAI FO, but the average SWA FO has also been at SWA a much longer then AAI. If you compare years of service, then that amount is much less, and in some cases, SWA is behind AAI.

 

[us1023]

SWA 8 year pay is $10/hr less then AAI's, and 9 year pay is $13/hr less then AAI.

According to APC, SWA 8 yr fo is 139 and AT is 95, SWA 9 yr fo is 140 and AT is 97. Where do you come up with SWA's is less than AT's? Oh, maybe you were talking about ca pay. Let's see, SWA 8 yr ca is 201 and AT is 149, SWA 9 yr ca is 203 and AT is 153. Where is this "AT's pay is 10 and 13 more than SWA come from"?

 

[Kharma Police]

gt1900, what is the guarantee monthly hours at AT vs SWA. I think it 87 trips for pay at SWA while most say they do well over that. what's it at AT? If you are capped to say 70-75 hours isn't there a huge disparity paywise when you look beyond just the pay rate?

AirTran doesn't have a cap on monthly flying like many other airlines.

 

[Bake]

It's not a cap Kharma, its a MINIMUM GUARANTEE. SWA does not have a cap. I will get credited for over 140 trips in March or about 18,000 dollars gross pay for the month. I'm an FO. We just trying to figure out where gt gets his numbers.

 

[redflyer65]

Guys I did the math awhile back, and even skewed it toward AAI and it wasn't even close.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Im an AAI guy, and to be perfectly honest, I would not mind if this entire thing went away.

I'm sure every single Southwest pilot feels the same way you do.

 

[johnsonrod]

I'm sure every single Southwest pilot feels the same way you do.

No wonder pilots aren't considered in strategic decisions.... Too bad, because we clearly know everything and we have answers to every question...

Good luck to all involved. Something tells me this is gonna get NASTY......

 

[N1kawotg]

gt, you also said you average 17 days off as a senior FO, a junior SW fo on reserve has 16 days off except Feb then its 15, I'm pretty sure. But he/she has the ability to go beyond the reserve guarantee on days off and do well beyond that from any base and only if he/she wants to. So looks to me their junior guy has great quality of life in comparison. Plus one must define growth and career expectations. Is it new airplanes, new cities growth? SW opens 3 new cities next month gets new airplanes and has upgrades again. They seemed to throw down the anchor on growth to ride out the economic downturn to protect their employees and continue to profit.Your career expectations when you got hired there could not have been the same as a SW hired that same year in regards to earnings either. So I can defintely see why SW pilots are concerned about losing seniority just because SWA the company buys not merges with another carrier. It is "relative" seniority depending on which side you are on. SW seems to have nothing to gain money wise and you could argue as you have about their quality of life which will 100% be reduced if an AT goes in front of them since they're junior guys seem to have your quality of life with more pay.

 

[gt1900]

According to APC, SWA 8 yr fo is 139 and AT is 95, SWA 9 yr fo is 140 and AT is 97. Where do you come up with SWA's is less than AT's? Oh, maybe you were talking about ca pay. Let's see, SWA 8 yr ca is 201 and AT is 149, SWA 9 yr ca is 203 and AT is 153. Where is this "AT's pay is 10 and 13 more than SWA come from"?

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. Almost everyone at AAI who is an 8 year pilot is a Cpt. Im trying to compare apples to apples as best as possible. If you compare guys who have been on property for 6-10 years at AAI, and guys who have been on property for 6-9 years at SWA, the pay gap that many at SWA are trying to claim just isn't there. Sure, the hourly rate of an 8 year FO at SWA is much better, but there isn't many 8 year FO's at AAI, so you need to compare actual apples to apples. If it wasn't for the SWA merger, Id already be on SWA pay because I could hold the left seat, but im still in the right seat because of this merger, and AAI has stopped hiring and for the most part, stopped upgrades.. For 10 year guys and later, sure, the SWA guys are making more money. But for a large portion of the AAI pilots, this isn't the huge windfall many at SWA think it is. In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating. 10 years ago SWA wasn't exactly the most desirable airline to work for. They were still young and didn't have nearly the hold they do today. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

 

[SWA/FO]

I would not mind if this entire thing went away

You might get your wish. Check out Muse/TranStar on wikipedia.

 

[N1kawotg]

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

My point exactly, your career expectation isn't that of a SW guy, you just said it. Also to compare apples to apples as you say, what does an 8 yr ca at AT make per month vs a 8 yr FO at SW not rate but actual pay in pocket. If it is anywhere in the same vicinity, then the argument for wages doesn't hold either. I would like to have less responsiblity and keep or make more sitting in right seat.