SWAPA has a transition agreement

[jonjuan]

A cowboy, a priest and a hooker walked into a bar.................

Does the priest like little boys?

 

[PapaWoody]

Bobby,

Every recent arbitration award disagrees with you. Now, I know you don't fly for either airline (just like me), and you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe you should sign up to be an arbitrator. I know one side that would do anything to give you a shot at it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm not saying that a staple would be fair or equitable, but I will point out that you always seem to conveniently "forget" about the Chautaqua/Shuttle America arbitrated award, GL. Was recent, was a lot more similar to our situation than NW/DL, was arbitrated according to Allegheney/Mohawk, pay and benefit disparity was an issue, and the final result wasn't even close to relative seniority. But keep only including examples that support your assertion that "relative seniority is the law". And we'll keep disregarding every vitriolic thing you say. Deal? Deal. Good talk.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[gt1900]

I'm not saying that a staple would be fair or equitable, but I will point out that you always seem to conveniently "forget" about the Chautaqua/Shuttle America arbitrated award, GL. Was recent, was a lot more similar to our situation than NW/DL, was arbitrated according to Allegheney/Mohawk, pay and benefit disparity was an issue, and the final result wasn't even close to relative seniority. But keep only including examples that support your assertion that "relative seniority is the law". And we'll keep disregarding every vitriolic thing you say. Deal? Deal. Good talk.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Im an AAI guy, and to be perfectly honest, I would not mind if this entire thing went away. Im a pretty senior FO and this merger is going to hose my upgrade. As it stands now, I get whatever time off I need, get any vacation I need, and my quality of life is amazing. I averaged 17 days off last year and live very comfortbaly with my AAI pay... What do I want out of the merger? I want to keep my quality of life about the same. Relative seniority would do that. However, I also understand that we will be getting a pay raise, so we need to give somewhere. You need to remember that AAI was still growing, uprgrading, and hiring. Our career expectations were much faster then the guys at SWA. I think most AAI guys would be willing to give up "some" relative seniority. That would boost the seniority of EVER SWA pilot on property. Not only that, SWA is now growing, hiring, and taking AAI airplanes. All of those things help the SWA pilot group. Its not like you aren't gaining anything out of this merger. YOUR ARE. However, your contract isn't good enough for SWA pilots to get a windfall with seniority. SWA 8 year pay is $10/hr less then AAI's, and 9 year pay is $13/hr less then AAI. IVe said it before, if everyone comes to the table with a level head, this will work great, but if any one pilot group comes looking for a windfall, its going to get ugly. What your union is telling you about wages is very misleading. Yes, your average FO rate is probably $40 grand a year more then the average AAI FO, but the average SWA FO has also been at SWA a much longer then AAI. If you compare years of service, then that amount is much less, and in some cases, SWA is behind AAI.

 

[N1kawotg]

gt1900, what is the guarantee monthly hours at AT vs SWA. I think it 87 trips for pay at SWA while most say they do well over that. what's it at AT? If you are capped to say 70-75 hours isn't there a huge disparity paywise when you look beyond just the pay rate?

 

[airlinepilot]

Please post the rates of pay at AAI and the monthly guarantee? My buds at AAI tell me that we at SWA are paid a good deal more? Sooooo.....I am having a hard time understanding what they tell me vs. what you are posting??? I also understand our Med/dental insurance is much cheaper than yours. How much do you pay for a family of 4? We are self insured and our rates (I am told my the company/swapa) are some of the lowest.

Im an AAI guy, and to be perfectly honest, I would not mind if this entire thing went away. Im a pretty senior FO and this merger is going to hose my upgrade. As it stands now, I get whatever time off I need, get any vacation I need, and my quality of life is amazing. I averaged 17 days off last year and live very comfortbaly with my AAI pay... What do I want out of the merger? I want to keep my quality of life about the same. Relative seniority would do that. However, I also understand that we will be getting a pay raise, so we need to give somewhere. You need to remember that AAI was still growing, uprgrading, and hiring. Our career expectations were much faster then the guys at SWA. I think most AAI guys would be willing to give up "some" relative seniority. That would boost the seniority of EVER SWA pilot on property. Not only that, SWA is now growing, hiring, and taking AAI airplanes. All of those things help the SWA pilot group. Its not like you aren't gaining anything out of this merger. YOUR ARE. However, your contract isn't good enough for SWA pilots to get a windfall with seniority. SWA 8 year pay is $10/hr less then AAI's, and 9 year pay is $13/hr less then AAI. IVe said it before, if everyone comes to the table with a level head, this will work great, but if any one pilot group comes looking for a windfall, its going to get ugly. What your union is telling you about wages is very misleading. Yes, your average FO rate is probably $40 grand a year more then the average AAI FO, but the average SWA FO has also been at SWA a much longer then AAI. If you compare years of service, then that amount is much less, and in some cases, SWA is behind AAI.

 

[us1023]

SWA 8 year pay is $10/hr less then AAI's, and 9 year pay is $13/hr less then AAI.

According to APC, SWA 8 yr fo is 139 and AT is 95, SWA 9 yr fo is 140 and AT is 97. Where do you come up with SWA's is less than AT's? Oh, maybe you were talking about ca pay. Let's see, SWA 8 yr ca is 201 and AT is 149, SWA 9 yr ca is 203 and AT is 153. Where is this "AT's pay is 10 and 13 more than SWA come from"?

 

[Kharma Police]

gt1900, what is the guarantee monthly hours at AT vs SWA. I think it 87 trips for pay at SWA while most say they do well over that. what's it at AT? If you are capped to say 70-75 hours isn't there a huge disparity paywise when you look beyond just the pay rate?

AirTran doesn't have a cap on monthly flying like many other airlines.

 

[Bake]

It's not a cap Kharma, its a MINIMUM GUARANTEE. SWA does not have a cap. I will get credited for over 140 trips in March or about 18,000 dollars gross pay for the month. I'm an FO. We just trying to figure out where gt gets his numbers.

 

[redflyer65]

Guys I did the math awhile back, and even skewed it toward AAI and it wasn't even close.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Im an AAI guy, and to be perfectly honest, I would not mind if this entire thing went away.

I'm sure every single Southwest pilot feels the same way you do.

 

[johnsonrod]

I'm sure every single Southwest pilot feels the same way you do.

No wonder pilots aren't considered in strategic decisions.... Too bad, because we clearly know everything and we have answers to every question...

Good luck to all involved. Something tells me this is gonna get NASTY......

 

[N1kawotg]

gt, you also said you average 17 days off as a senior FO, a junior SW fo on reserve has 16 days off except Feb then its 15, I'm pretty sure. But he/she has the ability to go beyond the reserve guarantee on days off and do well beyond that from any base and only if he/she wants to. So looks to me their junior guy has great quality of life in comparison. Plus one must define growth and career expectations. Is it new airplanes, new cities growth? SW opens 3 new cities next month gets new airplanes and has upgrades again. They seemed to throw down the anchor on growth to ride out the economic downturn to protect their employees and continue to profit.Your career expectations when you got hired there could not have been the same as a SW hired that same year in regards to earnings either. So I can defintely see why SW pilots are concerned about losing seniority just because SWA the company buys not merges with another carrier. It is "relative" seniority depending on which side you are on. SW seems to have nothing to gain money wise and you could argue as you have about their quality of life which will 100% be reduced if an AT goes in front of them since they're junior guys seem to have your quality of life with more pay.

 

[gt1900]

According to APC, SWA 8 yr fo is 139 and AT is 95, SWA 9 yr fo is 140 and AT is 97. Where do you come up with SWA's is less than AT's? Oh, maybe you were talking about ca pay. Let's see, SWA 8 yr ca is 201 and AT is 149, SWA 9 yr ca is 203 and AT is 153. Where is this "AT's pay is 10 and 13 more than SWA come from"?

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. Almost everyone at AAI who is an 8 year pilot is a Cpt. Im trying to compare apples to apples as best as possible. If you compare guys who have been on property for 6-10 years at AAI, and guys who have been on property for 6-9 years at SWA, the pay gap that many at SWA are trying to claim just isn't there. Sure, the hourly rate of an 8 year FO at SWA is much better, but there isn't many 8 year FO's at AAI, so you need to compare actual apples to apples. If it wasn't for the SWA merger, Id already be on SWA pay because I could hold the left seat, but im still in the right seat because of this merger, and AAI has stopped hiring and for the most part, stopped upgrades.. For 10 year guys and later, sure, the SWA guys are making more money. But for a large portion of the AAI pilots, this isn't the huge windfall many at SWA think it is. In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating. 10 years ago SWA wasn't exactly the most desirable airline to work for. They were still young and didn't have nearly the hold they do today. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

 

[SWA/FO]

I would not mind if this entire thing went away

You might get your wish. Check out Muse/TranStar on wikipedia.

 

[N1kawotg]

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

My point exactly, your career expectation isn't that of a SW guy, you just said it. Also to compare apples to apples as you say, what does an 8 yr ca at AT make per month vs a 8 yr FO at SW not rate but actual pay in pocket. If it is anywhere in the same vicinity, then the argument for wages doesn't hold either. I would like to have less responsiblity and keep or make more sitting in right seat.

 

[Fly-diver]

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. Almost everyone at AAI who is an 8 year pilot is a Cpt. Im trying to compare apples to apples as best as possible. If you compare guys who have been on property for 6-10 years at AAI, and guys who have been on property for 6-9 years at SWA, the pay gap that many at SWA are trying to claim just isn't there. Sure, the hourly rate of an 8 year FO at SWA is much better, but there isn't many 8 year FO's at AAI, so you need to compare actual apples to apples. If it wasn't for the SWA merger, Id already be on SWA pay because I could hold the left seat, but im still in the right seat because of this merger, and AAI has stopped hiring and for the most part, stopped upgrades.. For 10 year guys and later, sure, the SWA guys are making more money. But for a large portion of the AAI pilots, this isn't the huge windfall many at SWA think it is. In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating. 10 years ago SWA wasn't exactly the most desirable airline to work for. They were still young and didn't have nearly the hold they do today. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

So stupid it hardly deserves comment... but, how about comparing 12 yr captain rates? Here, I'll do it for you: AAI $162, SWA $210. 30% pay disparity. How about 3rd yr FO (since both AAI and SWA have them)? AAI $76, SWA $104. 37% increase for AAI FOs when (if?) they are part of SWAPA.

I won't bother going into the benefits, vacation, schedule flexibility, etc. Your head would probably explode, or you just wouldn't get it anyway. You have no idea how much better your life will be under our CBA, if you ever make it.

PS. Is your application on file at SWA?

 

[texman]

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. Almost everyone at AAI who is an 8 year pilot is a Cpt. Im trying to compare apples to apples as best as possible. If you compare guys who have been on property for 6-10 years at AAI, and guys who have been on property for 6-9 years at SWA, the pay gap that many at SWA are trying to claim just isn't there. Sure, the hourly rate of an 8 year FO at SWA is much better, but there isn't many 8 year FO's at AAI, so you need to compare actual apples to apples. If it wasn't for the SWA merger, Id already be on SWA pay because I could hold the left seat, but im still in the right seat because of this merger, and AAI has stopped hiring and for the most part, stopped upgrades.. For 10 year guys and later, sure, the SWA guys are making more money. But for a large portion of the AAI pilots, this isn't the huge windfall many at SWA think it is. In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating. 10 years ago SWA wasn't exactly the most desirable airline to work for. They were still young and didn't have nearly the hold they do today. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

I would sit back and watch our two unions get this deal done. You just stated "In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating". Isn't that what a arbitrator would do. I think you need to look at the health of your company compared to SWA's. I would also ask your shareholders and Bob why? Why are you selling us? You will upgrade at SWA and have a long prosperous career at SWA. A lot better one than you would have.

 

[ASADFW7]

The reality of pay is that it is a bigger gap than on paper. Forth year SWA FO 162K last year. How does that compare to $79 bucks an hour?

 

[Bob Dylan]

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. Almost everyone at AAI who is an 8 year pilot is a Cpt. Im trying to compare apples to apples as best as possible. If you compare guys who have been on property for 6-10 years at AAI, and guys who have been on property for 6-9 years at SWA, the pay gap that many at SWA are trying to claim just isn't there. Sure, the hourly rate of an 8 year FO at SWA is much better, but there isn't many 8 year FO's at AAI, so you need to compare actual apples to apples. If it wasn't for the SWA merger, Id already be on SWA pay because I could hold the left seat, but im still in the right seat because of this merger, and AAI has stopped hiring and for the most part, stopped upgrades.. For 10 year guys and later, sure, the SWA guys are making more money. But for a large portion of the AAI pilots, this isn't the huge windfall many at SWA think it is. In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating. 10 years ago SWA wasn't exactly the most desirable airline to work for. They were still young and didn't have nearly the hold they do today. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

I nominate this for the "Most Bizarre Logic of the Year" award!

Sounds like something Sarah Palin would say.

 

[Beechdriver32]

Hey, GT- I'm at your 8 year point at SWA, still just an FO.

Worked 649 block hours about 18 days off average without working most sat/sun and W2 showed 221K (inc 14K retro) in 2010. QOL is pretty awesome. If the offer for the left seat came today, I'd pass.

Not trying to show off, but you need some real numbers to look at and not some speculative things that you 'believe' or have 'heard'.

Life's is pretty good over here. You'll like it. Really.

But if you don't want it that's cool too.

Frankly, from a selfish point of view, I kinda hope your wish comes true. There isn't really any upside for me or most of my brothers.

Cheers- BD32

 

[PapaWoody]

How many 8 year Cpts are at SWA? None. Almost everyone at AAI who is an 8 year pilot is a Cpt. Im trying to compare apples to apples as best as possible. If you compare guys who have been on property for 6-10 years at AAI, and guys who have been on property for 6-9 years at SWA, the pay gap that many at SWA are trying to claim just isn't there. Sure, the hourly rate of an 8 year FO at SWA is much better, but there isn't many 8 year FO's at AAI, so you need to compare actual apples to apples. If it wasn't for the SWA merger, Id already be on SWA pay because I could hold the left seat, but im still in the right seat because of this merger, and AAI has stopped hiring and for the most part, stopped upgrades.. For 10 year guys and later, sure, the SWA guys are making more money. But for a large portion of the AAI pilots, this isn't the huge windfall many at SWA think it is. In the long run it "might" be, but then we would just be speculating. 10 years ago SWA wasn't exactly the most desirable airline to work for. They were still young and didn't have nearly the hold they do today. They made money because their wages were lower then everyone elses, and they scrapped for market share. Sound familier?

If you want to compare apples to apples, lets do that. An 8 yr. AAI CA gets paid $149/hr and is guaranteed 70 hours per month for a guaranteed minimum of $10430. An 8 yr. SWA F/O is paid $139/hr and is guaranteed 77 hours per month for a guaranteed minimum of $10703. Apples to apples. (side note: I know you can fly more, and do...we can and do too, and probably to a greater extent) So, in essence, our F/O's make more than your CA's. Please explain to me why you, or anyone else for that matter, thinks that your DOH at AAI should be valued greater on a combined list (the result of a relative seniority type solution), since regardless of the seat you occupy at that longevity at AAI, it is valued less now??? You want to talk anything approaching relative seniority, call the leg store, 'cause you're gonna need something to stand on. Start basing your arguments on the realities of this situation, then maybe we can talk. Just to make it clear to you, every F/O at AAI will realize the equivalent of an upgrade by becoming a SWA pilot. You know upgrade, that's the point in your career when you trade in seniority to make more money. Contrary to Ty's continual assertions, seniority isn't forever, it's a commodity that is regularly traded for a better life for your family. If that wasn't the case, we'd all still be regional captains. Capisce? (Sorry about the run-on paragraph, D. )

Fraternally,
Papawoody

 

[On Your Six]

The reality of pay is that it is a bigger gap than on paper. Forth year SWA FO 162K last year. How does that compare to $79 bucks an hour?

Will the Southwest pilots be giving any of their own pay to fund raises for Airtran pilots? If not, then zip it. You aren't giving up a dime.


OYS

 

[PapaWoody]

Will the Southwest pilots be giving any of their own pay to fund raises for Airtran pilots? If not, then zip it. You aren't giving up a dime.


OYS

Does any of this involve you? If not, then zip it. We neither need, nor want your input. Let the grown ups talk now...you know, the people who this actually affects. Go back to your substandard career, and await your next bankruptcy / furlough. See ya.

PW

 

[scoreboardII]

.........

 

[B727Driver]

Will the Southwest pilots be giving any of their own pay to fund raises for Airtran pilots? If not, then zip it. You aren't giving up a dime.

SWA F/O’s would pay for this to a greater extent, especially those who left AirTran for a better career at SWA. If this wasn’t the case, they would have stayed. They would pay with a lot more than a few dimes. Remember, these F/O’s were hired, not acquired. That has to count for something.

 

[us1023]

An 8 yr. SWA F/O is paid $139/hr and is guaranteed 77 hours per month for a guaranteed minimum of $10703.

Fraternally,
Papawoody

Papa, I think the 77 you used should be 87. Aren't the min guarantee 85/87/89 depending on how many days are in a particular month? So that $10703 number should really be $12093.

 

[PapaWoody]

Papa, I think the 77 you used should be 87. Aren't the min guarantee 85/87/89 depending on how many days are in a particular month? So that $10703 number should really be $12093.

No, I converted our tfp guarantee to an hourly guarantee (avg.) in order to compare "apples to apples", since I converted the tfp rate to an hourly rate using the 1.13 tfp/hr. standard (which equals the numbers used by Airline Pilot Central).

Cheers,
PW

 

[Kharma Police]

I nominate this for the "Most Bizarre Logic of the Year" award!

Sounds like something Sarah Palin would say.

Well, someone had to eventually take the title away from you but you will always be the, "Bizarre Logic Champ" in my book.

 

[ASADFW7]

Will the Southwest pilots be giving any of their own pay to fund raises for Airtran pilots? If not, then zip it. You aren't giving up a dime.


OYS

If you see it that way, cheers. I do not.

 

[dh82dvr]

Hey, GT- I'm at your 8 year point at SWA, still just an FO.

There isn't really any upside for me or most of my brothers.

Cheers- BD32

If you are short sighted there may not be an upside, however what will it look like 5 years or even 10 years down the road. There might be more upside than you think.