NWA/DAL solving the seniority issue

[NuGuy]

My prediction is these guys try and lock in contract gains and agree to send this thing to arbitration since one side doesn't want any responsibility for a negotiated settlement.

Heyas Nose,


Now here's something we can agree on. Lock in the gains, agree to disagree, and press on.

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

I am not sure that one is possible without the other, and this is what management may be banking on as well. Regardless if the FNG wants this or not, if our union leaders can't figure this out, there will be a merge without any of the good contract improvements and we will all be wishing we could go back in time. JP

Just a guess on my part. Not sure what management has to gain by offering the contract improvements without a negotiated settlement except to promote harmony in the combined group. I do think they wanted to avoid fences but an arbitrated decision seems almost certain to have them. What'll we call it, blue book, red book?

It's easy to forget here that the merger guys have a very difficult job. They're pretty much in uncharted territory with the largest airline merger ever attempted, incompatible fleets, varied historical backgrounds, and a completely different corporate culture. A lot of resposibilty to put on any employee group to say the least.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Funny how you guys write that you can not count on "career expectations" while trying to create phantom slots for alleged upcoming retirements.

I'd say a guy already flying the equipment, holding block, with new hires coming in underneath him, has pretty a reasonable expectation that he will continue flying his widebody international seat for the forseeable future.

Maybe what I should write is "Preserve Status Quo." But for some reason NWA pilots find a Delta FNG wanting to preserve the base and equipment he already operates as offensive and arrogant.

Fortunately an arbitrator would likely find merit in "status quo." The fact that it takes 13 to 15 years at NWA to obtain the status a Delta new hire enjoys is a problem for the NWA's esteemed arbitration team to tackle. Going against status quo is always an uphill battle.

Perhaps the Delta pilots will be huge beneficiaries of an arbitration.

 

[MJ42]

Funny how you guys write that you can not count on "career expectations" while trying to create phantom slots for alleged upcoming retirements.

I'd say a guy already flying the equipment, holding block, with new hires coming in underneath him, has pretty a reasonable expectation that he will continue flying his widebody international seat for the forseeable future.

Maybe what I should write is "Preserve Status Quo." But for some reason NWA pilots find a Delta FNG wanting to preserve the base and equipment he already operates as offensive and arrogant.

Fortunately an arbitrator would likely find merit in "status quo." The fact that it takes 13 to 15 years at NWA to obtain the status a Delta new hire enjoys is a problem for the NWA's esteemed arbitration team to tackle. But going against status quo is going to be an uphill battle.

Way off base Fins. I quote your Generals thoughts on career expectations. I don't want any DAL newbies base or equipment. I find the ATTITUDE of his(Cocks) post arrogant.

As a stand alone carrier, I'd move up pretty quick in the next few years. "Phantom retirements", really? I guarantee their will be lots NWA retirements over the next several years(unless SWA gets the retirement age changed to 70 ) So, the question is...what is fair for both pilot groups?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I guess the million dollar question is how long is DAL going to keep hiring 500+/yr? Do you really think they won't have to stop/furlough within the next year with 100+ oil? And even if they don't furlough the music will stop once they get the staffing caught up and with no retirements in the next 10 years or so one better enjoy their posistion. Now throw a merger with NW or even CAL into the mix, who have not had the begining of their retirements yet and with a relative seniority integration and no fences the DAL pilots get continued upward movement at the expense of the other pilot group. Seriously, I don't blame you for trying but you can't blame us for trying to protect our movement. I am NOT for doh unless there is 20 yr fences which would protect us in the first 10 or so years and y'all in the last 10 or so. Now, we all know the company does not want this, so there will have to be some form of length of service/relative seniority to equally piss all of us off and that will probably be fair.

Funny how you guys write that you can not count on "career expectations" while trying to create phantom slots for alleged upcoming retirements.

I'd say a guy already flying the equipment, holding block, with new hires coming in underneath him, has pretty a reasonable expectation that he will continue flying his widebody international seat for the forseeable future.

Maybe what I should write is "Preserve Status Quo." But for some reason NWA pilots find a Delta FNG wanting to preserve the base and equipment he already operates as offensive and arrogant.

Fortunately an arbitrator would likely find merit in "status quo." The fact that it takes 13 to 15 years at NWA to obtain the status a Delta new hire enjoys is a problem for the NWA's esteemed arbitration team to tackle. But going against status quo is going to be an uphill battle.

 

[~~~^~~~]

As a stand alone carrier, I'd move up pretty quick in the next few years. So, the question is...what is fair for both pilot groups?

Kindly refer to my post on page one of this thread. That is my "Fair Plan" and the idea is free for adoption to any good home.

The plan would preserve your career movement, as well as my status quo and give both of us the choice of when to use our system seniority to bid out into growth.

Since each pilot would be in control of his choice on bidding I think it would promote a happy & satisfied merger of the work groups.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Career Protection & Progression




“Cross-Bidding” System ​

• • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
  • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
  • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (relative seniority, ratio., etc.)
  • Future new-hires would have their "system" number.

• Methodology
  • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types.
  • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
  • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
  • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
  • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
• Benefits
  • Pilots have the choice, deciding when they want to use their "system" number to bid into new / growth aircraft.
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.

 

[MJ42]

Kindly refer to my post on page one of this thread. That is my "Fair Plan" and the idea is free for adoption to any good home.

Fair enough, seems reasonable.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Heyas Nose,


Now here's something we can agree on. Lock in the gains, agree to disagree, and press on.

Nu

Delta is offering "gains" as a means to persuade us to agree to SLI without arbitration. They (Delta and our union) tell us there will be no deal without a pre-negotiated list. The other option is "press on" (from a company standpoint)...ie merge the airlines with no increases in pay, work rules, etc and let the SLI fight drag on. Or my preference...don't do the deal.

 

[PCL_128]

Fins, have you forwarded your idea to the DAL MEC and Merger Committee?

 

[rf285]

I guess the million dollar question is how long is DAL going to keep hiring 500+/yr? Do you really think they won't have to stop/furlough within the next year with 100+ oil? And even if they don't furlough the music will stop once they get the staffing caught up and with no retirements in the next 10 years or so one better enjoy their posistion. Now throw a merger with NW or even CAL into the mix, who have not had the begining of their retirements yet and with a relative seniority integration and no fences the DAL pilots get continued upward movement at the expense of the other pilot group. Seriously, I don't blame you for trying but you can't blame us for trying to protect our movement. I am NOT for doh unless there is 20 yr fences which would protect us in the first 10 or so years and y'all in the last 10 or so. Now, we all know the company does not want this, so there will have to be some form of length of service/relative seniority to equally piss all of us off and that will probably be fair.

How long do you think NW will be hiring when you start parking the DC-9s? I'm thinking shrinkage offset by "possible" retirements, i.e. zero just like DAL in your theory.

 

[NYRANGERS]

How long do you think NW will be hiring when you start parking the DC-9s? I'm thinking shrinkage offset by "possible" retirements, i.e. zero just like DAL in your theory.

It would be nice (if we have to do this deal), to let the oil situation play out. Lets see what happens to the dc9 and md88's, then let the "guaranteed" retirements happen at NWA....see where everyone is and try the deal again.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, have you forwarded your idea to the DAL MEC and Merger Committee?

Yes and no. Someone with more horsepower than I have needs to send this in. I'm hoping somebody somebody picks it up and runs with it.

The Delta MEC isn't exactly waiting by the phone waiting for Fins to call and tell them how to run their operation. But someone like Occam, Puffdriver, FDJ, or General might get listened to.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NY:

That would be nice, but oil prices might not give us the luxury of time.

 

[ExAF]

Not Neccessarily

I'd say a guy already flying the equipment, holding block, with new hires coming in underneath him, has pretty a reasonable expectation that he will continue flying his widebody international seat for the forseeable future.

Spoken like a post 9-11 hire. I'm pretty sure anyone hired pre-911 or (near 9-11) would tend to disagree with that statement. The old rule of thumb was if you had at least 10% below you on the SL you were pretty safe from furlough. Shortly after 9-11 those numbers were dashed. Even many captains found themselves back in the right seat for a long time. Just 'cause you have a seat now doesn't mean squat for the future, especially if you are in the bottom 20% of either list. We should all put our peckers back in our pants and wait for the committees to inform us of what is really going on. I know pilots aren't patient though; and for some stirring the pot is just too much fun.