SWAPA has a transition agreement

[boeing717]

True, and what's wrong with that? More then likely if you were to merge with any airline, one would have a better contract then the other. I don't think it will take 5 + years for SWA pilots to realize the gains of the combined airlines. After all, SWA just took 2 of AirTrans 737s. The poolies are being given class dates. You are planning on future hiring. Gary Kelly said all of this growth is happening because of the AirTran merger. Are these not gains for the SWA pilot group?

I think we are also gaining from the same thing when we are joined together.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

........

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

For all the bravado from the boys/girls from Luv, one would think they have been an industry leader in pay/benefits for years. The truth is only since Q1 of 2004 did they go above the industry. It took 4 legacies in ch11 for that to occur. Looking back to Q1 2001 luv was a drag on the industry, somewhere between a good regional and the legacies. The chart starts at Q1 2001 but my guess is the "southwest effect" was even more pronounced (read, bottom feeder wages/benefits) the first 18 years. Keep in mind that in the early 90s most legacies were under concessionary contracts and luv still lagged.

 

[Dash Power]

Nope. No one has mentioned it to me. I just decided it was a waste of time . . . there is no dialogue here, just negativity and spin.

Yep. A quick check back here and the same old thing. Does anyone really fool themselves thinking they can change someones mind on this board? It naturally attracts closed minded people.

I wish there was some common interest with the same misguided passion. For instance how our entire profession has been downgraded in pay and benefits the past thirty years. We have new hires on food stamps by god.

 

[RLAblows]

I think we are also gaining from the same thing when we are joined together.

I agree, but the theme seems to be that the SWA pilots are getting nothing from the deal. Yet the gains from this deal are already starting to be realized in Dallas in the form of new hires. They just refuse to see it.

 

[Dash Power]

For all the bravado from the boys/girls from Luv, one would think they have been an industry leader in pay/benefits for years. The truth is only since Q1 of 2004 did they go above the industry. It took 4 legacies in ch11 for that to occur. Looking back to Q1 2001 luv was a drag on the industry, somewhere between a good regional and the legacies. The chart starts at Q1 2001 but my guess is the "southwest effect" was even more pronounced (read, bottom feeder wages/benefits) the first 18 years. Keep in mind that in the early 90s most legacies were under concessionary contracts and luv still lagged.

The legacies agreed to B scales in the mid 80's well before SWA was on the radar.

This is an industry problem. SWA included.

 

[boeing717]

I agree, but the theme seems to be that the SWA pilots are getting nothing from the deal. Yet the gains from this deal are already starting to be realized in Dallas in the form of new hires. They just refuse to see it.

If we get the same thing as SWA then it is a wash. You cannot say they are getting something from the deal if we are gettting the same thing. You need to find something that they are getting that we are not. That will be hard.

 

[RLAblows]

If we get the same thing as SWA then it is a wash. You cannot say they are getting something from the deal if we are gettting the same thing. You need to find something that they are getting that we are not. That will be hard.

You mean for example the 2 737s we just lost to them?

 

[RLAblows]

If we get the same thing as SWA then it is a wash. You cannot say they are getting something from the deal if we are gettting the same thing. You need to find something that they are getting that we are not. That will be hard.

That has been my point all along. We are both gaining because of the merger, but the SWA pilots say they are gaining nothing.

 

[texman]

I agree, but the theme seems to be that the SWA pilots are getting nothing from the deal. Yet the gains from this deal are already starting to be realized in Dallas in the form of new hires. They just refuse to see it.

From Air Tran's 2Q10 10Q:


As of June 30, 2010, our aircraft purchase commitments for the remainder of 2010 and for the next five years and thereafter, in aggregate, are (in millions): 2010—$20; 2011—$140; 2012—$270; 2013—$280; 2014—$370; 2015—$510; and thereafter—$580. These amounts include payment commitments, including payment of pre-delivery deposits, for aircraft on firm order. Aircraft purchase commitments include the forecasted impact of contractual price escalations. Our intention is to finance the aircraft on order through either debt financing, lease financing, or a mix thereof. We have financing commitments from a lender to finance a majority of the acquisition price of two B737 aircraft scheduled for delivery to us in 2011 or 2012. We have not yet arranged for aircraft financing for any of the other aircraft deliveries.

As the deliveries do come SWA, I would also keep a open mind on how they are getting here. AT would have never taking any of them. Lack of capital. Remember SWA has 250 orders and options with boeing too. Yes it is nice we can take all future deliveries form AT, but you have to realize SWA's capital is the key to any of this going forward. Again AT pilots need to ask the shareholders and Bob why your are being sold. I think it is a pretty weak assumption that the pilots (both sides) have a hand at what they bring in relationship to aircraft.

As far as getting something from the deal? I think we all are. I think you are better off at SWA than you would be at AT in the long run. Your company is hurting. If you where not then this deal would have never gone down. You guy's have money but not enough to survive the long haul.

AT guy's have to realize after the corporate closing we will own you. I hope that day the AT people play as a success sharing team and not burn down the house. You operation is going to put a negative financial impact on our operations initially. You will be part of SWA's long term success as much as the current SWA pilots. Your career expectations will be better off also. Don't think of ME or what I should get now, think 10 years from now.

Don't be surprise if you see another asset acquisition that SWA will be involved with. It's all good.

As far as the new hires, it is do to more vacations, because the group is becoming senior.

 

[boeing717]

You mean for example the 2 737s we just lost to them?

We did not lose them. Anything they take from us now will be ours again when they combine the airline. How can you say we lost something when we will get them back. They can take 50 new aircraft that were for us but guess who will be flying them hopefully real soon? Yes, both groups.

 

[RLAblows]

I don't think it's been AT pilots asking what do I get NOW out of the deal. The recurring theme has been, "what are the SWA pilots getting out of the deal?" Re-read all of the threads. I think you'll find AT pilots ahve been pretty neutral in the entire process.

 

[dicko]

From Air Tran's 2Q10 10Q:


As of June 30, 2010, our aircraft purchase commitments for the remainder of 2010 and for the next five years and thereafter, in aggregate, are (in millions): 2010—$20; 2011—$140; 2012—$270; 2013—$280; 2014—$370; 2015—$510; and thereafter—$580. These amounts include payment commitments, including payment of pre-delivery deposits, for aircraft on firm order. Aircraft purchase commitments include the forecasted impact of contractual price escalations. Our intention is to finance the aircraft on order through either debt financing, lease financing, or a mix thereof. We have financing commitments from a lender to finance a majority of the acquisition price of two B737 aircraft scheduled for delivery to us in 2011 or 2012. We have not yet arranged for aircraft financing for any of the other aircraft deliveries.

As the deliveries do come SWA, I would also keep a open mind on how they are getting here. AT would have never taking any of them. Lack of capital. Remember SWA has 250 orders and options with boeing too. Yes it is nice we can take all future deliveries form AT, but you have to realize SWA's capital is the key to any of this going forward. Again AT pilots need to ask the shareholders and Bob why your are being sold. I think it is a pretty weak assumption that the pilots (both sides) have a hand at what they bring in relationship to aircraft.

As far as getting something from the deal? I think we all are. I think you are better off at SWA than you would be at AT in the long run. Your company is hurting. If you where not then this deal would have never gone down. You guy's have money but not enough to survive the long haul.

AT guy's have to realize after the corporate closing we will own you. I hope that day the AT people play as a success sharing team and not burn down the house. You operation is going to put a negative financial impact on our operations initially. You will be part of SWA's long term success as much as the current SWA pilots. Your career expectations will be better off also. Don't think of ME or what I should get now, think 10 years from now.

Don't be surprise if you see another asset acquisition that SWA will be involved with. It's all good.

As far as the new hires, it is do to more vacations, because the group is becoming senior.

Did you attend the same college as 'flyinvixen' ?

 

[texman]

Dicko,

Why do you ask?

 

[boeing717]

I don't think it's been AT pilots asking what do I get NOW out of the deal. The recurring theme has been, "what are the SWA pilots getting out of the deal?" Re-read all of the threads. I think you'll find AT pilots ahve been pretty neutral in the entire process.

You said that they were getting 2 aircraft from us. Well, you cannot say that because we will get them back. Tell me something that they are getting that we are not. It seems the only thing we are getting that they are not is money. I hear some people say that they are not paying it out of their pocket so it should not be considered.That is true but it is not coming out of our pocket either. In fact it will be going into our pocket.

Everything we are bringing to the table and everything they are bringing to the table will be shared between all of us. The money is the only thing we get that they do not get.

 

[On Your Six]

I don't think it's been AT pilots asking what do I get NOW out of the deal. The recurring theme has been, "what are the SWA pilots getting out of the deal?" Re-read all of the threads. I think you'll find AT pilots ahve been pretty neutral in the entire process.

You have to ask those SWA guys what they are losing do to this other than perceived upgrades? Answer: NOTHING. Airtran pilots are not taking a dime from them. But, they don't want to tell you that.


OYS

 

[boeing717]

You have to ask those SWA guys what they are losing do to this other than perceived upgrades? Answer: NOTHING. Airtran pilots are not taking a dime from them. But, they don't want to tell you that.


OYS

You are correct we are not taking a dime from them. However, we are getting a lot of dimes that they are not getting. A whole lot of dimes. I am glad they have direct deposit.

 

[carl p]

Hmmm, for some reason me thinks your not an AT pilot...

 

[On Your Six]

You are correct we are not taking a dime from them. However, we are getting a lot of dimes that they are not getting. A whole lot of dimes. I am glad they have direct deposit.

Doesn't matter. Southwest will be paying you, not SWAPA. Do you think they would rather you be on a B scale? They might, but what kind of unity or "culture" would that create? A bad one. GK and investment bankers thought you would be a good fit with SWA, and they will have to pay up to make everything work, and create a stronger airline overall. You will be paid by SWA, NOT SWAPA. And, they may get a small raise out of this too, which they might not have gotten without the merger. Tell them YOU'RE WELCOME.


OYS

 

[boeing717]

Hmmm, for some reason me thinks your not an AT pilot...

I guess anybody that makes sense cannot be an AT pilot. All I said was the facts. It might not be what you want to hear but you are free to explain where I am wrong. There are pilots at AT that can make sense. However, it takes a strong person to stand up to the loud mouths. Maybe you are a follower and not a leader. That is ok though. We need followers just like we need leaders.