well that was quick.....

[KiddDynomite]

Its a shame the furloughees get to hear about this on FI instead of a unified union board.

It is a shame but no one is talking about the real problem and that's the economy. The money to buy into our service is no longer there or they are not spending it. Our country is heading for a very bad place and that's the real issues. We can talk about contracts all we want but the American empire is failing. The managemnt team is just trying to take all they can for themselves and line their life boat before the ship sinks. The problem is we're all going to be left in the cold water without a life preserver.

 

[gret]

I personally don't want to engage in any form of busting. I want to see NJA thrive and not just survive. It has the potential to be a great job. The problem is two fold, the current managment team does not see the pilot group as allies but as enemies. Management is sticking to the tried and failed concept of lead by decree and intimidation not by respect. They see the union and our contract as an obstacle. The other problem is we are in a failing economy and sales are not there. Now if management communicated this to the pilot group and viewed the union as a partner to service our clients and work together through these difficult times things would be much better. The problem is they are choosing the failed idea of attacking our contract. It really does not matter if sales or flying are down, the pilot group are the frontline service providers who operate in a demanding environment and we do beyond an excellent job doing it! If they need to furlough more than do it, concessions never save jobs. I for one am tired of working in an adversarial enviroment where everything is about reprisals. It takes away from our ability to safely operate. This management team needs to start doing just that, manage this company and enable us to continue to provide the excellent service we pilots do to the people who can afford it!

Nice post.

 

[G4dude]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

In which struggling economy should the Sales department "light the fire?" Cheers!

 

[G4dude]

I know we are having a private conversation in a public form, and doing anything that does not support the theme of the thread is often severely frowned upon. All that being said, does anyone care about company busting? You know the union adage of "More pay and more days off" until you have all your days off with no pay. However only my experience in union operations.

Bravo.

 

[G4dude]

I personally don't want to engage in any form of busting. I want to see NJA thrive and not just survive. It has the potential to be a great job. The problem is two fold, the current managment team does not see the pilot group as allies but as enemies. Management is sticking to the tried and failed concept of lead by decree and intimidation not by respect. They see the union and our contract as an obstacle. The other problem is we are in a failing economy and sales are not there. Now if management communicated this to the pilot group and viewed the union as a partner to service our clients and work together through these difficult times things would be much better. The problem is they are choosing the failed idea of attacking our contract. It really does not matter if sales or flying are down, the pilot group are the frontline service providers who operate in a demanding environment and we do beyond an excellent job doing it! If they need to furlough more than do it, concessions never save jobs. I for one am tired of working in an adversarial enviroment where everything is about reprisals. It takes away from our ability to safely operate. This management team needs to start doing just that, manage this company and enable us to continue to provide the excellent service we pilots do to the people who can afford it!

Concessions do save jobs if they keep the company from going out of business, in my opinion.

 

[G4dude]

We are operationally profitable. We are doing our part. The owners love us. We deserve to keep our jobs. We deserve to keep our CBA in tact.

Why do you have such a low self worth?

I'm just really worried about the economy and it's effect on the company. If the company atrophies, so do our jobs. No self worth problems here, although it is ironic, I get accused of selfishness AND feelings of low self worth. Kinda hard to suffer from both personality faults.

 

[gunfyter]

Concessions do save jobs if they keep the company from going out of business, in my opinion.

I don't think anybody disagrees with that ...

But I do not see how it applies to us. We won't be going out of business... and if we do ... it won't be because of Scope.

 

[Hogprint]

Really? I am horrified. In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly.

G4...

Can you show us an example of pilots giving concessions and it saving jobs?
Just one example will do...

As far as I know it has never kept the company from continuing with furloughs.

 

[KiddDynomite]

G4,

The economy is struggling and sales are definitely affected by it but I also believe there is a concerted effort not to sell shares and to move the used airframes to EJM. There is a serious effort to eliminate aircraft and that is undeniable. Concessions may save a company that is going down but it's only tempory. Slice your arm to the artery and direct pressure will only stop the bleeding for a little while because you need stitches. The doctor is not stiching our wounds! They have a very workable scope clause now in fact it truly favors the company and not our side. They can sell off more than 11 days per quarter with a small financial penalty. What they are after is to simply undermine our contract. The current leadership hates having a union. That's the truth. I would be more than willing to take a pay cut or contribute to my benenfits if I thought it would truly help or bring guys back but it won't. I went long enough without because this pilot group was significantly under paid. Now we are almost comensurate with where we should be and they want to take it away not to save the company but to outsource our jobs and simply prove a point. Yes the economy is a major factor but that doesn't change the worth of this pilot group and the job it performs. If it's with a smaller NJA because of true shrinkage so be it. I say we stand firm. This isn't personal because I thnk we see eye to eye on many things but they truly don't need scope relief. They have a workable agreement, it's about doing more with less. They're just playing a shell game to show more profits, pure and simple.

 

[CE750Driver]

This stuff truly cracks me up! Let's for one minute stop talking s@!t about NJA, scope, pay and drawing lines in the sand and look at reality. The reality is the people who are our clients no longer have the money to buy. It's that simple. Once we get past that fact then we can talk about the rest. I hate to say the 495 are NOT coming back. It's that simple. Luthi stated the company is going to keep shrinking over the next ten years. I would read that a 30-50% reduction over the next 3-5 years! That's the reality. We can talk all we want but that's the barrel of the gun we're looking down.

I personally think the best thing that can happen is we get sold. Then again there's nothing to sell except a few hangars and a clapped out core fleet. The company is a shell. We don't own 400 airplanes, the clients do. Sure we have the Marquis airframes but they're worth squat.

There's not going to be a turn around here. Wake up and smell the coffee! The whole country is heading for financial disaster and we're just a small portion. The sooner you guys learn that the better and the better you will be prepared.

As far as concessions, we provide valuable skills to the clients, the ones who remain should pay for them. Simple as that. Concessions and continued cuts are not going to save NJA. A change in the model and airplane sales will. I don't see that happening under this management or economy anytime soon.

Sorry dude. Just read that thread, and you are leaving out alot. First of all, no where, does Luthi state, "the company is going to keep shrinking for 10 years". As you say he said. Second the 10 percent cut in core fleet is his estimate, if we give up on 1.5.

Twisted words at best.

 

[fischman]

I'm just really worried about the economy and it's effect on the company. If the company atrophies, so do our jobs. No self worth problems here, although it is ironic, I get accused of selfishness AND feelings of low self worth. Kinda hard to suffer from both personality faults.

A Berkshire Hathaway company going bankrupt? Is that what you're saying? Dude. NetJets is going to be here for a long time, although it may not be the NetJets we know today.

Being selfish creates a desire to increase your self worth. You need low self worth to achieve this. Very easy to suffer both faults.

 

[G4dude]

A Berkshire Hathaway company going bankrupt? Is that what you're saying? Dude. NetJets is going to be here for a long time, although it may not be the NetJets we know today.

Being selfish creates a desire to increase your self worth. You need low self worth to achieve this. Very easy to suffer both faults.

It must be wonderful to go through life believing all who disagree with you do so because of ulterior motives. It could never be a genuine difference of opinion while agreeing about the problem, in good faith.

 

[G4dude]

G4...

Can you show us an example of pilots giving concessions and it saving jobs?
Just one example will do...

As far as I know it has never kept the company from continuing with furloughs.

Delta Airlines. Even if a company furloughs because of a bad economy, concessions save the jobs of most. Companies don't inevitably last forever, look at GM. (Until the government bought controlling interest, which is another conversation.) I am not always for concessions, but we are looking at several hard years worldwide, and we better face reality. To all those who want to "shut it down" over scope, I plead with you to just quit, find that other better job, and leave the rest of our jobs alone.

 

[pilotyip]

Delta Airlines. Even if a company furloughs because of a bad economy, concessions save the jobs of most. Companies don't inevitably last forever, look at GM. (Until the government bought controlling interest, which is another conversation.) I am not always for concessions, but we are looking at several hard years worldwide, and we better face reality. To all those who want to "shut it down" over scope, I plead with you to just quit, find that other better job, and leave the rest of our jobs alone.

When management faces too many headaches running a business, they try to fix these. If they can not fix them, they either sell the comapny or close it. A militant work force is the source of one of those headaches. NJ is still one of the best jobs in the country. This sounds a lot like we used to see about the major airline pilot never giving any concessions prior to 9-11.

 

[G4dude]

When management faces too many headaches running a business, they try to fix these. If they can not fix them, they either sell the comapny or close it. A militant work force is the source of one of those headaches. NJ is still one of the best jobs in the country. This sounds a lot like we used to see about the major airline pilot never giving any concessions prior to 9-11.

Where were you while I was defending our honor? Thanks for entering the fray and letting the union guys know I am not the only dissenter to Luthi's ravings.

 

[imacdog]

Concessions are not required because the company is profitable at this time. Period. Careful listening to YIP, he's still proud that he starts his pilots at 35K.

 

[KiddDynomite]

G4,

I am definitely not a union loonie but someone who walks the middle road and looks at the facts. The company has good sell off language now and it's 11 days per quarter. Do you ever look at the ops schedule and see what days are green, yellow or red? We have very few yellow or red days where sell offs are needed. The intent is clear and concise this is OUTSOURCING our jobs. If this was a question of a pay or a benefits cut sure bring it and we'll talk about it but it has nothing to do with saving this company! Put the koolaid down. Yes Luthi has his shortcomings and there will always be a bit of drama on both ends to push their respective agendas but when it comes to scope we cannot budge! Do you not see what is going on? They are selling the older aircraft and putting them under the steed of EJM. Not only that but this is the biggest thing that I think a lot of people are missing, they are also parking many airframes but still selling shares on them. They are simply trying to operate with fewer active aircraft therefore they need the coverage because they are being less than forthright in their method of operation. Once again they are parking planes and selling the shares and operating less airframes. With those planes parked they're able to show reduced maintence costs, up the usage number on the planes that are being operated and thereby cook the books for WB. We have rookies running the show. I can talk about working with them on anything else except scope. If they truly need the money they would be asking for concessions not scope. They are shifting the flying and they want to get away from the fractional model and be a management company. It's pretty clear. Give in on nothing, save your money and dust off the resume because they are not serious about making this place successful! If they were, they would take the measures necessary not play games out of Sokol's playbook! No offense intended.

 

[Hogprint]

Delta Airlines. Even if a company furloughs because of a bad economy, concessions save the jobs of most. Companies don't inevitably last forever, look at GM. (Until the government bought controlling interest, which is another conversation.) I am not always for concessions, but we are looking at several hard years worldwide, and we better face reality. To all those who want to "shut it down" over scope, I plead with you to just quit, find that other better job, and leave the rest of our jobs alone.

Now expand on that Delta example. Didn't a large portion of the pilots take early outs that softened the blow? Were there not some other mitigating circumstances that make this an apples to oranges comparison? This is saving jobs? This was after this... Once you start giving things away you just have to keep on giving as the Delta example shows.

I agree to a certain point that we may be looking at hard years ahead depending on the political winds a blowing. I also don't think it will ever get to a "shut it down" situation IMO.

As to quitting and getting that better job, I think the ball is in your court on that count. If the former NJI attitude is still prevalent then I would think there would be a run on those "better" jobs out of your ranks rather than put up with the bad scary union.

 

[gunfyter]

All the economists and experts are predicting bad times... Therefore I believe the opposite will happen....

 

[G4dude]

G4,

I am definitely not a union loonie but someone who walks the middle road and looks at the facts. The company has good sell off language now and it's 11 days per quarter. Do you ever look at the ops schedule and see what days are green, yellow or red? We have very few yellow or red days where sell offs are needed. The intent is clear and concise this is OUTSOURCING our jobs. If this was a question of a pay or a benefits cut sure bring it and we'll talk about it but it has nothing to do with saving this company! Put the koolaid down. Yes Luthi has his shortcomings and there will always be a bit of drama on both ends to push their respective agendas but when it comes to scope we cannot budge! Do you not see what is going on? They are selling the older aircraft and putting them under the steed of EJM. Not only that but this is the biggest thing that I think a lot of people are missing, they are also parking many airframes but still selling shares on them. They are simply trying to operate with fewer active aircraft therefore they need the coverage because they are being less than forthright in their method of operation. Once again they are parking planes and selling the shares and operating less airframes. With those planes parked they're able to show reduced maintence costs, up the usage number on the planes that are being operated and thereby cook the books for WB. We have rookies running the show. I can talk about working with them on anything else except scope. If they truly need the money they would be asking for concessions not scope. They are shifting the flying and they want to get away from the fractional model and be a management company. It's pretty clear. Give in on nothing, save your money and dust off the resume because they are not serious about making this place successful! If they were, they would take the measures necessary not play games out of Sokol's playbook! No offense intended.

No offense taken! I admire your passion, but disagree with your conclusions about management's motivations. Lets see what happens, I think Luthi loves to stir the pot, and don't believe much of what he says.

 

[G4dude]

All the economists and experts are predicting bad times... Therefore I believe the opposite will happen....

No you do not.

 

[EngineThunder]

Concessions are not required because the company is profitable at this time. Period. Careful listening to YIP, he's still proud that he starts his pilots at 35K.

He also loves aviation so much he would work for free. Ask him what he charged for international contract pilot work in the past. Keep setting the bar lower in kyip.

 

[jtf]

Sorry dude. Just read that thread, and you are leaving out alot. First of all, no where, does Luthi state, "the company is going to keep shrinking for 10 years". As you say he said. Second the 10 percent cut in core fleet is his estimate, if we give up on 1.5.

Twisted words at best.

Read posts 16 and 24 by Luthi in that thread. The numbers he quoted were over the next ten years and the percentage he quoted that would be affected by the loss of the core fleet was 10 to 15 percent if we give up the scope. Maybe he doesn't say these things exactly as the quote above, but that is what he is saying and that is what is scaring the crap out of the current bottom third of the list. I don't remember what thread they start talking about the put possibilities of downgrading, but that gets talked about too.

 

[BentOver]

Read posts 16 and 24 by Luthi in that thread. The numbers he quoted were over the next ten years and the percentage he quoted that would be affected by the loss of the core fleet was 10 to 15 percent if we give up the scope. Maybe he doesn't say these things exactly as the quote above, but that is what he is saying and that is what is scaring the crap out of the current bottom third of the list. I don't remember what thread they start talking about the put possibilities of downgrading, but that gets talked about too.

Nice of him to never stop by the furloughed side. He could have atleast stopped by once over the past 2 years to say something.

 

[KiddDynomite]

Read posts 16 and 24 by Luthi in that thread. The numbers he quoted were over the next ten years and the percentage he quoted that would be affected by the loss of the core fleet was 10 to 15 percent if we give up the scope. Maybe he doesn't say these things exactly as the quote above, but that is what he is saying and that is what is scaring the crap out of the current bottom third of the list. I don't remember what thread they start talking about the put possibilities of downgrading, but that gets talked about too.

Thank you JTF. some people only read what they want because they cannot see the reality in front of them. This isn't meant to be a dig just stating a fact. It's all in there. we are heading for some harsh times.

 

[fischman]

It must be wonderful to go through life believing all who disagree with you do so because of ulterior motives. It could never be a genuine difference of opinion while agreeing about the problem, in good faith.

Let's see, we had FamilyGuy for the '05 contract who managed to go away after it was signed. Then we had B19 for the FLOPS battle who has gone away after their contract was signed.

Now that management wants to open up Section 6 next year, ALL OF THE SUDDEN G4 comes out of the woodwork.

Yeah... No ulterior motives. We are smarter than that. Please don't insult our intelligence. This is an OLD union busting tactic that we don't fall for.

 

[mtnrunner]

Face it, deal with it, and then move on...

1) It's a Berkshire Hathaway company. Financial distress is not on the horizon and bankruptcy, with so much Berkshire Hathaway guaranteed debt and obligations to the owner contracts, is out of the question.

2) Berkshire has installed a weak management team. When they install an experienced, capable, and respected management team then worry about what the union should do next. I see a lot of fall guys (managers) put in position to cut operating costs, minimize commitments to OEM's, and try to chase out the unions. Eventually they all get replaced when a new (build the business) CEO comes in.

3) A sales strategy of "raise prices and shorten the line" isn't much of a sales strategy. Especially with a 10 year old fleet. They may get the same margins out of one airplane that way rather than dealing with two airplanes, but that's going to cost jobs by shrinking the company.

4) The primary reason for 1.5c4 relief is because of the high number of disposals and the even high number of owners and cardholders per wholly owned airplane. Chase out the most desired customers you get the 32nd and 16th share scraps.

5) Don't blink, don't sweat, and don't do what management is either incapable of or unwilling to do... don't make it easy. Sad to say, but Warren has set in motion a game of chicken, but Hansell is in the driver seat of a remote controlled vehicle. Warren has the remote and that's the key. Warren is taking the group on.

Finally:
Face it, deal with it, and then move on. There is a future no matter what. But the longer it takes to get a fully committed ownership and management team the more damage that is going to be done.

 

[platinum750]

Fish, You are not cool and Netjets does not make money. You need to realize this.

 

[G4dude]

Let's see, we had FamilyGuy for the '05 contract who managed to go away after it was signed. Then we had B19 for the FLOPS battle who has gone away after their contract was signed.

Now that management wants to open up Section 6 next year, ALL OF THE SUDDEN G4 comes out of the woodwork.

Yeah... No ulterior motives. We are smarter than that. Please don't insult our intelligence. This is an OLD union busting tactic that we don't fall for.

How funny! I have been on this site for years, always visible and always pro free market. Mostly critical of the union I am a member of. Nothing sneaky or underhanded here.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Now that management wants to open up Section 6 next year

Sorry bud. You're off by three years...