well that was quick.....

[fischman]

Absolutely wrong. I state that conceding on Scope will save jobs by helping NJA stay profitable. However, if some future jobs go to EJM instead of NJA, why is this some sort of morally wrong result? A hired EJM pilot is just as happy as a hired NJA pilot. I CAN see why the union doesn't like it, however, which doesn't bother me at all. The union doesn't care about anything outside of its own selfish interests.

HA!!! Selfish? Look in the mirror brother. Tell me what you see.

Pot. Meet kettle.

 

[Helmsalee]

G4, you might care if it was YOUR job going to EJM.
Helm

 

[G4dude]

I know a 495er who is at EJM now. He took a big pay cut, and they don't have the protections of NJASAP.

And NJA is in a better financial position to stay in business, thereby preserving our jobs. If we ain't profitable, we lose our jobs.

 

[G4dude]

G4, you might care if it was YOUR job going to EJM.
Helm

My understanding is that EJM is a good gig. Was I misinformed by the EJM pilots who told me this? As far as being "protected" by NJASAP, y'all know my answer to that.

 

[jtf]

Can you point me to that post by Luthi on the union message board that says we will be shrinking for 10 years? I went back to 8/1 now, and can't seem to find it. Or, are you making this up?

It's pretty buried in the union message board by now. It was in a thread called Union Busting 101 and at least a couple of pages into that thread. It opened my eyes a little more. I sure hope Luthi is wrong on that prediction. Unfortunately, most of the data he uses to support it adds up. I think we will get a better idea if it is heading that much lower once we see how many "firm" orders the company makes for mid/ super mid size airplanes. I understand that "firm" orders from NJA aren't really firm, but most likely they do give a descent idea of the current plans for the minimum fleet size. I don't believe managements size statements, but I am hoping that it won't be as low as some data points.

 

[G4dude]

It's pretty buried in the union message board by now. It was in a thread called Union Busting 101 and at least a couple of pages into that thread. It opened my eyes a little more. I sure hope Luthi is wrong on that prediction. Unfortunately, most of the data he uses to support it adds up. I think we will get a better idea if it is heading that much lower once we see how many "firm" orders the company makes for mid/ super mid size airplanes. I understand that "firm" orders from NJA aren't really firm, but most likely they do give a descent idea of the current plans for the minimum fleet size. I don't believe managements size statements, but I am hoping that it won't be as low as some data points.

Maybe increased concerns about privacy will lead more new owners to join us. Things are certainly worrisome at the moment.

 

[jtf]

My guess is that EJM has some good jobs- most likely almost exclusively on G-IVs, Vs, and some Falcons. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of their jobs are much lower paid though. If you look at the corporate pay by airplane type surveys that are published every year, NJA blows most pay by type away except for large cabin. Even getting those jobs is quite unlikely for anyone furloughed by NJA. I believe the union would entertain giving up some of the scope providing that EJM has to hire up those affected and probably providing some kind of further protections- also very unlikely. Honestly, the main job of the union is to protect the jobs of those in the union. If the union believes the company is going to go down the pooper without scope erosion, maybe it would happen, but as it is now the company is NOT losing money. The vast majority of pilots will not accept any erosion of our contract unless the company can truly convince us that without concessions the company will die. The majority of us towards the bottom would rather be furloughed with a hope of coming back to a descent job than give up concessions. If the economy truly goes down the crapper, there are going to be some hard choices for all involved, but a profitable company isn't getting free reign to outsource my job or take one cent of concessions from me.

 

[fischman]

And NJA is in a better financial position to stay in business, thereby preserving our jobs. If we ain't profitable, we lose our jobs.

We are operationally profitable. We are doing our part. The owners love us. We deserve to keep our jobs. We deserve to keep our CBA in tact.

Why do you have such a low self worth?

 

[imacdog]

Let's see G4 resign his seniority and go to EJM. Yeah, not gonna happen. He's willing to stab other pilots in the back, but just wouldn't want to do what he wishes on others.

 

[KiddDynomite]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

 

[Jack Campbell]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

Its a shame the furloughees get to hear about this on FI instead of a unified union board.

 

[pilotyip]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

I know we are having a private conversation in a public form, and doing anything that does not support the theme of the thread is often severely frowned upon. All that being said, does anyone care about company busting? You know the union adage of "More pay and more days off" until you have all your days off with no pay. However only my experience in union operations.

 

[OPECJet]

I know we are having a private conversation in a public form, and doing anything that does not support the theme of the thread is often severely frowned upon. All that being said, does anyone care about company busting? You know the union adage of "More pay and more days off" until you have all your days off with no pay. However only my experience in union operations.

Yip, in this case the company is busting itself and asking the pilot group to support it. There is no real leadership, and the current president has no plan other than the unsustainable one handed to him by a criminal who's only goal was to further his career.

 

[OPECJet]

Its a shame the furloughees get to hear about this on FI instead of a unified union board.

Amen to that.

 

[KiddDynomite]

I personally don't want to engage in any form of busting. I want to see NJA thrive and not just survive. It has the potential to be a great job. The problem is two fold, the current managment team does not see the pilot group as allies but as enemies. Management is sticking to the tried and failed concept of lead by decree and intimidation not by respect. They see the union and our contract as an obstacle. The other problem is we are in a failing economy and sales are not there. Now if management communicated this to the pilot group and viewed the union as a partner to service our clients and work together through these difficult times things would be much better. The problem is they are choosing the failed idea of attacking our contract. It really does not matter if sales or flying are down, the pilot group are the frontline service providers who operate in a demanding environment and we do beyond an excellent job doing it! If they need to furlough more than do it, concessions never save jobs. I for one am tired of working in an adversarial enviroment where everything is about reprisals. It takes away from our ability to safely operate. This management team needs to start doing just that, manage this company and enable us to continue to provide the excellent service we pilots do to the people who can afford it!