well that was quick.....

[BentOver]

The Union also questioned if the Globals and Phenoms will show up..... Were 100% certain we would furlough last year.... And recently were posting on our side that it was looking like things were turning around...

No one knows for sure what is going to transpire, not the Union leadership nor NJA management....

If we all took what has been said on the Union board for 100%...we would all be resigning our seniority for the first job that came along.

Both sides need something...

Union needs unity..so they highten the urgency of the situation..Probably over playing every scenario.

Managment wants concessions...so they instill as much fear as possible.

It's the rational persons job to recognize this and make as an informed decision as possible. Only taking so much of what is said as absolute truth. It's called thinking for yourself... And coming to your own conclusions

 

[G4dude]

While I'm certainly not a "union crazy" (and yes, I know the type you're referring to), I would gladly see this entire company driven into liquidation resulting in the loss of your job and mine before I'd vote to allow ANY type of concession (especially scope relief). I think the vast majority of pilots here would agree with that.

Really? I am horrified. In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly.

 

[G4dude]

Let the company worry about making money. If they can't do so without outsourcing our jobs, then the place isn't worth saving anyway.

We had better ALL worry about our employer making money, Imac. Especially in this economy which appears to be sliding back into recession...

 

[G4dude]

Bingo...The company will not simply dissolve. At some point it will be worth so much less than what WB has invested that selling may be his best option. Hopefully RTS would buy it back, fire all the idiots in Bridgeway, bring his guys back in, and regrow the company... At the very least someone buys us that wants to grow the company again.

Either way, almost all options are better than the sorry affairs going on at Bridgeway these days

I have been here 11 years, and come from NJI, where management was excellent, and am curious what behaviors in Columbus are idiotic. I agree they could do better in some areas of day to day operational efficiency, but do you have some specifics about idiocies? Now, having RTS own and run us again? I could get behind that notion!

 

[G4dude]

He posted it in a thread on the union site. I forget which one but it was about a week and half or two weeks ago. No BS! That's been the company plan all along. I'm just the messanger!

The company plan is to be the right size for our market, and right now that market is smaller. When the economy improves, the market and NJA (and the other fracs) will be bigger. There is no significant conspiracy or conflict between normal pilots and management, we are just in a flat and sclerotic market right now with uncertain and destructive government actions making things worse.

 

[G4dude]

The Union also questioned if the Globals and Phenoms will show up..... Were 100% certain we would furlough last year.... And recently were posting on our side that it was looking like things were turning around...

No one knows for sure what is going to transpire, not the Union leadership nor NJA management....

If we all took what has been said on the Union board for 100%...we would all be resigning our seniority for the first job that came along.

Both sides need something...

Union needs unity..so they highten the urgency of the situation..Probably over playing every scenario.

Managment wants concessions...so they instill as much fear as possible.

It's the rational persons job to recognize this and make as an informed decision as possible. Only taking so much of what is said as absolute truth. It's called thinking for yourself... And coming to your own conclusions

I am in "fear", but it is not instilled by management, but by the economy. There is not a state of war between pilots and the company. There is, apparently, a war between the union and management. I feel the union is generally idiotic, with all due respect to the members.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Is there really people today that believe that any concession will help?


Two quotes come to mind:


"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it." and " Its not personal, Its just business."

I still am searching for am example of a pilot group that didn't get their butt handed to them later or had not taken several steps back when giving any concession to their contract. If there is one out there please let me know! I know this has been said over and over, but all of what is happening is right out of Leavitt's book: The cozy meetings, the casual tossing of the threat of furlough or no deliveries if you dont do this or that.....

We have to remember that this is all the pre-game,the big show is coming later. Don't take it personally, don't fall for silly threats, stand your ground on Scope. And for God's sake, Fly the damned airplane and enjoy the job and the interaction with our owners. That part still hasn't changed.

All this from a Idiotic Union Crazy. (I've been called worse....)

 

[imacdog]

Apparently there is one that thinks it would help. G4 obviously hasn't been paying attention to what happened at the airlines when those pilots gave in to scope demands. Pity, really. Fortunately the ignorant can be educated, I just hope they don't learn the hard way in this case.

 

[doh]

The company plan is to be the right size for our market, and right now that market is smaller. When the economy improves, the market and NJA (and the other fracs) will be bigger. There is no significant conspiracy or conflict between normal pilots and management, we are just in a flat and sclerotic market right now with uncertain and destructive government actions making things worse.

Boom goes the dynamite! Do you have an excessive amount of unsold shares not covered by card sales? Then you'll shrink. Are you selling a lot of shares and cards? Then you'll expand. Look at that and your crystal ball has a chance of being accurate. All the rest is just rhetoric. I almost forgot to say, never give them scope! You will never benefit from outsourcing your jobs.

 

[BentOver]

G4 just won another golden vagina..Congratulations dude...... Time to get off your knees buddy. Hansell finished.... Don't forget to wipe your face.

 

[NachoMamma]

Really? I am horrified. Seriously??? You're horrified at someone showing conviction and standing firm in their principles even if it costs them monetarily? No offense, but c'mon man...show a little dignity. There are other jobs out there.

In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? Yes...absolutely. BTW, "giving in on scope" = losing your job (eventually). The terms are synonymous.

With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. And that is exactly what will happen to you when you give in on scope.

This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly. I think you'll find that your view, while shared by most of the former NJI crowd, is not even remotely a majority. The VAST majority of pilots here (read NJA original pilots) are staunchly, vehemently - to the point of willingly seeing the entire operation shut down - opposed to concessions. If you don't believe me, look at what we were able to accomplish in 2004-2005.

Again, this isn't an extremist view (although it may sound like one)...it is a realistic, experienced, "been there done that" view and absolutely is shared by far more than enough of a majority here to dominate any vote. Having said that, the point is moot as the current NJASAP leadership will never allow such a proposal to find its way to a membership vote in the first place.

Personally I'm not worried. If the situation were to degrade to the point of me losing my job due to a non-agreement on scope, I have no doubt that I will find another one.

 

[brokeflyer]

i think the company should start giving concessions, the pilot group appears to be doing their jobs perfectly, so that obviously isnt the problem.

 

[OPECJet]

The company should start giving concessions to prospective owners. Charging 30% above the competition for an inferior product is not how a business grows. If there is 1/5th of a brain left in CMH they'll get serious about that. Right now what's happening with the idiot pinheads that run NJA is flat out maddening.

 

[fischman]

Really? I am horrified. In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly.

Careful you don't step in the bull crap fellas.

 

[fischman]

Really? I am horrified. In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly.

To give in to scope IS to be unemployed. Why can't you see that???

 

[Grizz]

Fisch - he thinks that his seniority will protect him and only junior guys will get let go. It's all about him.

 

[fischman]

The company plan is to be the right size for our market, and right now that market is smaller. When the economy improves, the market and NJA (and the other fracs) will be bigger. There is no significant conspiracy or conflict between normal pilots and management, we are just in a flat and sclerotic market right now with uncertain and destructive government actions making things worse.

The "Union" IS THE PILOTS. The eboard speaks for US, executing OUR will.

Are you really that ignorant of how this works?

Be sure to give Noe a recommendation in his search. He won't get one from many others.

 

[fischman]

Fisch - he thinks that his seniority will protect him and only junior guys will get let go. It's all about him.

That's funny. We know it is all about me. I AM AWESOME.

 

[BentOver]

Now for something a bit more proactive...

What are some ways/scenarios... EJM aircraft could be flown by Union pilots?

I ask because it is obviously apparent the intent is to outsource to EJM... If they (management) want to do nothing more than this, is it possible to somehow work out something where it is done with NJA pilots? Maybe another integration?

NOT a CONCESSION to 1.5.4(c), but rather another combining of the seniority list. A reshuffling of the furloughees, and then even if EJM grows, it will be with NJA pilots.... Some EJM pilots would get hosed with a furlough, some furloughees would reap some recall benefits, and then as business grows (NJA or EJM) business would cary on as usual with recalls etc..

PROS/CONS???? Honest question...

 

[t-bone]

Assuming things haven't changed, EJM planes are either owner-managed or charter-managed. We were an owner-managed client when our airplanes were on EJMs certificate years ago, and we hired our own pilots with zero input from EJM. So in that case, NJA pilots would have to be hired by an individual owner to fly that airplane. The owner also reserves the right to say no to NJA sell-offs, which we did frequently when the trips weren't worth the energy. I am not familiar with how charter-managed works, but I think EJM has a much bigger management role, in both staffing and trips flown.