well that was quick.....

[NachoMamma]

Really? I am horrified. Seriously??? You're horrified at someone showing conviction and standing firm in their principles even if it costs them monetarily? No offense, but c'mon man...show a little dignity. There are other jobs out there.

In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? Yes...absolutely. BTW, "giving in on scope" = losing your job (eventually). The terms are synonymous.

With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. And that is exactly what will happen to you when you give in on scope.

This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly. I think you'll find that your view, while shared by most of the former NJI crowd, is not even remotely a majority. The VAST majority of pilots here (read NJA original pilots) are staunchly, vehemently - to the point of willingly seeing the entire operation shut down - opposed to concessions. If you don't believe me, look at what we were able to accomplish in 2004-2005.

Again, this isn't an extremist view (although it may sound like one)...it is a realistic, experienced, "been there done that" view and absolutely is shared by far more than enough of a majority here to dominate any vote. Having said that, the point is moot as the current NJASAP leadership will never allow such a proposal to find its way to a membership vote in the first place.

Personally I'm not worried. If the situation were to degrade to the point of me losing my job due to a non-agreement on scope, I have no doubt that I will find another one.

 

[brokeflyer]

i think the company should start giving concessions, the pilot group appears to be doing their jobs perfectly, so that obviously isnt the problem.

 

[OPECJet]

The company should start giving concessions to prospective owners. Charging 30% above the competition for an inferior product is not how a business grows. If there is 1/5th of a brain left in CMH they'll get serious about that. Right now what's happening with the idiot pinheads that run NJA is flat out maddening.

 

[fischman]

Really? I am horrified. In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly.

Careful you don't step in the bull crap fellas.

 

[fischman]

Really? I am horrified. In this economy, you would really rather lose your jobs than give in on scope? With all due respect, I feel y'all haven't thought this through. I absolutely would rather give in on something (like scope, maybe) than become unemployed. This is not a proposed negotiating position from me, just a philosophical observation. I also feel strongly that most pilots do NOT share your views, although I thank you for expressing them intelligently and civilly.

To give in to scope IS to be unemployed. Why can't you see that???

 

[Grizz]

Fisch - he thinks that his seniority will protect him and only junior guys will get let go. It's all about him.

 

[fischman]

The company plan is to be the right size for our market, and right now that market is smaller. When the economy improves, the market and NJA (and the other fracs) will be bigger. There is no significant conspiracy or conflict between normal pilots and management, we are just in a flat and sclerotic market right now with uncertain and destructive government actions making things worse.

The "Union" IS THE PILOTS. The eboard speaks for US, executing OUR will.

Are you really that ignorant of how this works?

Be sure to give Noe a recommendation in his search. He won't get one from many others.

 

[fischman]

Fisch - he thinks that his seniority will protect him and only junior guys will get let go. It's all about him.

That's funny. We know it is all about me. I AM AWESOME.

 

[BentOver]

Now for something a bit more proactive...

What are some ways/scenarios... EJM aircraft could be flown by Union pilots?

I ask because it is obviously apparent the intent is to outsource to EJM... If they (management) want to do nothing more than this, is it possible to somehow work out something where it is done with NJA pilots? Maybe another integration?

NOT a CONCESSION to 1.5.4(c), but rather another combining of the seniority list. A reshuffling of the furloughees, and then even if EJM grows, it will be with NJA pilots.... Some EJM pilots would get hosed with a furlough, some furloughees would reap some recall benefits, and then as business grows (NJA or EJM) business would cary on as usual with recalls etc..

PROS/CONS???? Honest question...

 

[t-bone]

Assuming things haven't changed, EJM planes are either owner-managed or charter-managed. We were an owner-managed client when our airplanes were on EJMs certificate years ago, and we hired our own pilots with zero input from EJM. So in that case, NJA pilots would have to be hired by an individual owner to fly that airplane. The owner also reserves the right to say no to NJA sell-offs, which we did frequently when the trips weren't worth the energy. I am not familiar with how charter-managed works, but I think EJM has a much bigger management role, in both staffing and trips flown.

 

[gret]

Quickest way to lose a managed client is to tell the owner who is going to fly his plane. Its been tried before and the owner is out selecting a new mgmt company quicker than you can say peanut butter.

EJM tried this last year and lost a $150K account. A friend was the pilot who flew the owner for 24 years and EJM thought he would get in between them and the owner. Major mistake by EJM.

 

[imacdog]

At least G4 is honest in his willingness to screw over other pilots.

 

[doh]

G4 is right about the economy determining the size of your operation. He is wrong about scope. If you allow yourselves to be broken into smaller bargaining units, you lose bargaining power. No pilot has ever benefited from that, ever.

 

[gunfyter]

The only way I see any concessions being worthwhile is to avoid Bankruptcy where a CBA would be worthless anyway. Thats pretty much what the UAW did with GM.

 

[Helmsalee]

That's part of what happened at Delta. They knew that in bankruptcy the CBA could be toast, so they gave concessions. In exchange, the company agreed that they would not try to throw out the contract. This way, the pilots had some choice in what they gave. Actually, the biggest concession (worth by far the most to the company) was not pay or work rules. Alpa agreed not to fight the termination of the pension plan. Since a high percentage of the senior pilots had bailed, there was not much resistance to throwing the "old" guys under the bus.
Helm

 

[G4dude]

Fisch - he thinks that his seniority will protect him and only junior guys will get let go. It's all about him.

You obviously haven't read all my posts. I have been laid off eleven times, and really feel the pain of the 495. I also don't want anybody else to join them. I feel the way I do about scope for the same reason you feel the opposite way about scope. We both care about the pilots, but have different ideas about the best way to protect their jobs.

 

[G4dude]

Careful you don't step in the bull crap fellas.

What bull crap?

 

[G4dude]

The "Union" IS THE PILOTS. The eboard speaks for US, executing OUR will.

Are you really that ignorant of how this works?

Be sure to give Noe a recommendation in his search. He won't get one from many others.

I know how it works, just don't like it. Noe is an excellent man and manager, and I enjoyed flying for him while at NJI.

 

[G4dude]

Now for something a bit more proactive...

What are some ways/scenarios... EJM aircraft could be flown by Union pilots?

I ask because it is obviously apparent the intent is to outsource to EJM... If they (management) want to do nothing more than this, is it possible to somehow work out something where it is done with NJA pilots? Maybe another integration?

NOT a CONCESSION to 1.5.4(c), but rather another combining of the seniority list. A reshuffling of the furloughees, and then even if EJM grows, it will be with NJA pilots.... Some EJM pilots would get hosed with a furlough, some furloughees would reap some recall benefits, and then as business grows (NJA or EJM) business would cary on as usual with recalls etc..

PROS/CONS???? Honest question...

If the company outsources to EJM, how does that cost pilots jobs? Oh yeah, you mean UNION pilot jobs. This isn't about compassion for potentially unemployed pilots at all, apparently.

 

[G4dude]

At least G4 is honest in his willingness to screw over other pilots.

You mean other UNION pilots, don't you? Lack of scope will benefit EJM pilots. This is fun!

 

[imacdog]

Yes, pilots in your pilot group. Your coworkers. The people that you see in recurrent, that also represent your brand. Those people. I'm really not surprised that you feel a discussion about selling out pilots at your company is "fun". Disturbed, but not surprised.

 

[G4dude]

Yes, pilots in your pilot group. Your coworkers. The people that you see in recurrent, that also represent your brand. Those people. I'm really not surprised that you feel a discussion about selling out pilots at your company is "fun". Disturbed, but not surprised.

Actually, I think some of the 495 are now employed by EJM. Sorry you are so disturbed.

 

[wacoflyr]

Okay, okay. I know, I have no business in this discussion, but I've had a couple, and G4 is getting to me. Over the past 40 years, the flying profession, like most others, has seen real compensation decrease by at least 50%. There are many reasons, but basically the price of flying has decreased for the public, and compensation for shareholders and executives has shot through the roof.

It used to be that a company had stakeholders; employees, customers, and shareholders. Now, shareholders hold sway over both employees and customers. As a result, customer service has gone down, and compensation for employees has been chopped in half. We have a new reality. Management wants the money, and are not interested in employees or customers except in how they can be convinced to cough up as much money as possible.

So what do you do? First, concede nothing. Trust me, management won't. Second, explain to management the cost of an unhappy workforce. They will understand the expense of unhappy pilots on the road with millions of dollars of assets. Be constructive about how you can help the bottom line, but make it clear that you will tolerate nothing less than being treated like a partner. Accept nothing less.

As pilots, we are where the rubber meets the road. We have educated ourselves at great expense, and we handle a multi-million dollar asset, as well as customers, far from base. We are the most important piece of the puzzle. Expect to be compensated accordingly. If you accept less, you merely line the pockets of those who do less.

Sorry for the rant. Couldn't take it any more. Back to my hole.

Wacoflyr

 

[OPECJet]

Good post, Waco.

 

[imacdog]

Actually, I think some of the 495 are now employed by EJM. Sorry you are so disturbed.

Doesn't change your lack of respect for your coworkers. Truly sad.

 

[G4dude]

Doesn't change your lack of respect for your coworkers. Truly sad.

My respect for my coworkers is shown by my desire for their employer to stay in business, so they can continue to have their jobs.

 

[fischman]

All of us desire NetJets to stay in business, and to thrive.

Concessions will make Hansell thrive, not NetJets.

 

[G4dude]

All of us desire NetJets to stay in business, and to thrive.

Concessions will make Hansell thrive, not NetJets.[/QUOTE

Speaking of Hansell, what kind of manager is he? Does he know much about our business? It seems like we are being led by a ghost.

 

[G4dude]

Okay, okay. I know, I have no business in this discussion, but I've had a couple, and G4 is getting to me. Over the past 40 years, the flying profession, like most others, has seen real compensation decrease by at least 50%. There are many reasons, but basically the price of flying has decreased for the public, and compensation for shareholders and executives has shot through the roof.

It used to be that a company had stakeholders; employees, customers, and shareholders. Now, shareholders hold sway over both employees and customers. As a result, customer service has gone down, and compensation for employees has been chopped in half. We have a new reality. Management wants the money, and are not interested in employees or customers except in how they can be convinced to cough up as much money as possible.

So what do you do? First, concede nothing. Trust me, management won't. Second, explain to management the cost of an unhappy workforce. They will understand the expense of unhappy pilots on the road with millions of dollars of assets. Be constructive about how you can help the bottom line, but make it clear that you will tolerate nothing less than being treated like a partner. Accept nothing less.

As pilots, we are where the rubber meets the road. We have educated ourselves at great expense, and we handle a multi-million dollar asset, as well as customers, far from base. We are the most important piece of the puzzle. Expect to be compensated accordingly. If you accept less, you merely line the pockets of those who do less.

Sorry for the rant. Couldn't take it any more. Back to my hole.

Wacoflyr

Are there a lot of unhappy NJA pilots? Not at the former NJI, I can tell you, where my views are pretty mainstream. Do you feel we are underpaid? I surely don't. Neither do my colleagues with whom I fly. This conversation is quite a revelation to me.

 

[G4dude]

Doesn't change your lack of respect for your coworkers. Truly sad.

I just don't agree with the Union position. This has nothing to with disrespect for anybody. We are heading into another recession and I am very worried about our jobs, which are provided by the company, which needs to be profitable in order to employ us all. When the Euro bond market collapses, our financial institutions will suffer, our 401Ks will tank, and our potential owner list will dwindle. This is the REAL world which the Union would like to ignore, in my humble opinion.