well that was quick.....

[KiddDynomite]

First off Hansel is still playing by Gretel's, I mean Sokol's playbook. A sad little tome that came off the university business school presses not the press of reality. They are continuing to shrink this company and that's their plan. Concessions have nothing to do with it other than line their pockets because less is coming in. If they need to furough then furlogh. I personally don't think the 495 are coming back or at least not for a very very long time. If I was one of them and thankfully I am not, I would just move on and say thanks for the memories and measuring stick of what a good job was! Now the important thing, scope. I can give whatever is needed if it truly came down to that except for scope! Without a locked in solid scope clause we have nothing. There will be no job to give those concessions for! None of it matters without scope. My biggest concern is all the used airplanes we're sitting on and I think that needs to be addressed in scope also. The used airframes can bite us hard and take away business. They want to shift as much as possible to EJM using those old airframes and shrink NJA, it's obvious. We cannot back down onn this issue or give one inch. If we do you gave the biggest concession of all, your job. They need to get back to truly running this business not gutting it. I won't give an inch.

 

[imacdog]

I just don't agree with the Union position. This has nothing to with disrespect for anybody. We are heading into another recession and I am very worried about our jobs, which are provided by the company, which needs to be profitable in order to employ us all. When the Euro bond market collapses, our financial institutions will suffer, our 401Ks will tank, and our potential owner list will dwindle. This is the REAL world which the Union would like to ignore, in my humble opinion.

I don't think anyone is going to argue against the idea that the economy plays the biggest role in the size of the company. We all accept that is something we do not have control over. What we do have control over is telling the company in no uncertain terms that they will not outsource our jobs. Your willingness to sell out other pilots in your group is disgusting.

Just to be clear: Your desire for concessions in the scope clause will cause the outsourcing of NJA pilot jobs and will cause furloughs. Your 11 years with the company will become meaningless as you slide further and further down the list and eventually fall off.

 

[Xcorporate]

Actually, I think some of the 495 are now employed by EJM. Sorry you are so disturbed.

Some of us are still unemployed too......

 

[G4dude]

Some of us are still unemployed too......

I really hate that...brings back lots of BAD memories.

 

[G4dude]

I don't think anyone is going to argue against the idea that the economy plays the biggest role in the size of the company. We all accept that is something we do not have control over. What we do have control over is telling the company in no uncertain terms that they will not outsource our jobs. Your willingness to sell out other pilots in your group is disgusting.

Just to be clear: Your desire for concessions in the scope clause will cause the outsourcing of NJA pilot jobs and will cause furloughs. Your 11 years with the company will become meaningless as you slide further and further down the list and eventually fall off.

I wish this conversation could be free of the personal attacks. I am not selling out anybody, just am not willing to financially weaken the company for illusory jobs that supposedly exist in a vacuum. I never attacked you personally. By the way, is a job with EJM inferior to one with NJA? I don't know a lot about EJM.

 

[imacdog]

What I said was not a personal attack. It is what you believe and wish upon others at your company. If the truth hurts, then that's because it should. The company is free to furlough more pilots if they need to, but they will do so while honoring the scope clause of the collective bargaining agreement.

 

[G4dude]

What I said was not a personal attack. It is what you believe and wish upon others at your company. If the truth hurts, then that's because it should. The company is free to furlough more pilots if they need to, but they will do so while honoring the scope clause of the collective bargaining agreement.

The personal attack is because you state I don't care about my fellow pilots. That is not true. You and I just differ about what policies best benefit them. See the difference? Just because I don't agree with you about the solution doesn't mean I don't care equally about the problem.

 

[CE750Driver]

First off Hansel is still playing by Gretel's, I mean Sokol's playbook. A sad little tome that came off the university business school presses not the press of reality. They are continuing to shrink this company and that's their plan. Concessions have nothing to do with it other than line their pockets because less is coming in. If they need to furough then furlogh. I personally don't think the 495 are coming back or at least not for a very very long time. If I was one of them and thankfully I am not, I would just move on and say thanks for the memories and measuring stick of what a good job was! Now the important thing, scope. I can give whatever is needed if it truly came down to that except for scope! Without a locked in solid scope clause we have nothing. There will be no job to give those concessions for! None of it matters without scope. My biggest concern is all the used airplanes we're sitting on and I think that needs to be addressed in scope also. The used airframes can bite us hard and take away business. They want to shift as much as possible to EJM using those old airframes and shrink NJA, it's obvious. We cannot back down onn this issue or give one inch. If we do you gave the biggest concession of all, your job. They need to get back to truly running this business not gutting it. I won't give an inch.

Can you point me to that post by Luthi on the union message board that says we will be shrinking for 10 years? I went back to 8/1 now, and can't seem to find it. Or, are you making this up?

 

[imacdog]

The personal attack is because you state I don't care about my fellow pilots. That is not true. You and I just differ about what policies best benefit them. See the difference? Just because I don't agree with you about the solution doesn't mean I don't care equally about the problem.

You openly state you'd rather see NJA pilots lose their jobs than not give in to concessions. That is the opinion of someone who doesn't care about their fellow pilots. As I made clear earlier, giving back on scope will put your coworkers on the street. Yet you are perfectly fine with that. You can't run and hide from this, as it is exactly what you are promoting.

 

[fischman]

Looks to me like B19 has another login. wouldn't you agree STW?

 

[Willy21]

Wait for the shake Piss Boy.

 

[KiddDynomite]

Can you point me to that post by Luthi on the union message board that says we will be shrinking for 10 years? I went back to 8/1 now, and can't seem to find it. Or, are you making this up?

It's in there, within the last three weeks. I'll look too, but I read it in someone's post, Luthi was responding to a post.

 

[OPECJet]

I think last week made mention of it.

 

[G4dude]

You openly state you'd rather see NJA pilots lose their jobs than not give in to concessions. That is the opinion of someone who doesn't care about their fellow pilots. As I made clear earlier, giving back on scope will put your coworkers on the street. Yet you are perfectly fine with that. You can't run and hide from this, as it is exactly what you are promoting.

Absolutely wrong. I state that conceding on Scope will save jobs by helping NJA stay profitable. However, if some future jobs go to EJM instead of NJA, why is this some sort of morally wrong result? A hired EJM pilot is just as happy as a hired NJA pilot. I CAN see why the union doesn't like it, however, which doesn't bother me at all. The union doesn't care about anything outside of its own selfish interests.

 

[fischman]

I wish this conversation could be free of the personal attacks. I am not selling out anybody, just am not willing to financially weaken the company for illusory jobs that supposedly exist in a vacuum. I never attacked you personally. By the way, is a job with EJM inferior to one with NJA? I don't know a lot about EJM.

I know a 495er who is at EJM now. He took a big pay cut, and they don't have the protections of NJASAP.

 

[fischman]

Absolutely wrong. I state that conceding on Scope will save jobs by helping NJA stay profitable. However, if some future jobs go to EJM instead of NJA, why is this some sort of morally wrong result? A hired EJM pilot is just as happy as a hired NJA pilot. I CAN see why the union doesn't like it, however, which doesn't bother me at all. The union doesn't care about anything outside of its own selfish interests.

HA!!! Selfish? Look in the mirror brother. Tell me what you see.

Pot. Meet kettle.

 

[Helmsalee]

G4, you might care if it was YOUR job going to EJM.
Helm

 

[G4dude]

I know a 495er who is at EJM now. He took a big pay cut, and they don't have the protections of NJASAP.

And NJA is in a better financial position to stay in business, thereby preserving our jobs. If we ain't profitable, we lose our jobs.

 

[G4dude]

G4, you might care if it was YOUR job going to EJM.
Helm

My understanding is that EJM is a good gig. Was I misinformed by the EJM pilots who told me this? As far as being "protected" by NJASAP, y'all know my answer to that.

 

[jtf]

Can you point me to that post by Luthi on the union message board that says we will be shrinking for 10 years? I went back to 8/1 now, and can't seem to find it. Or, are you making this up?

It's pretty buried in the union message board by now. It was in a thread called Union Busting 101 and at least a couple of pages into that thread. It opened my eyes a little more. I sure hope Luthi is wrong on that prediction. Unfortunately, most of the data he uses to support it adds up. I think we will get a better idea if it is heading that much lower once we see how many "firm" orders the company makes for mid/ super mid size airplanes. I understand that "firm" orders from NJA aren't really firm, but most likely they do give a descent idea of the current plans for the minimum fleet size. I don't believe managements size statements, but I am hoping that it won't be as low as some data points.

 

[G4dude]

It's pretty buried in the union message board by now. It was in a thread called Union Busting 101 and at least a couple of pages into that thread. It opened my eyes a little more. I sure hope Luthi is wrong on that prediction. Unfortunately, most of the data he uses to support it adds up. I think we will get a better idea if it is heading that much lower once we see how many "firm" orders the company makes for mid/ super mid size airplanes. I understand that "firm" orders from NJA aren't really firm, but most likely they do give a descent idea of the current plans for the minimum fleet size. I don't believe managements size statements, but I am hoping that it won't be as low as some data points.

Maybe increased concerns about privacy will lead more new owners to join us. Things are certainly worrisome at the moment.

 

[jtf]

My guess is that EJM has some good jobs- most likely almost exclusively on G-IVs, Vs, and some Falcons. I'm fairly certain the vast majority of their jobs are much lower paid though. If you look at the corporate pay by airplane type surveys that are published every year, NJA blows most pay by type away except for large cabin. Even getting those jobs is quite unlikely for anyone furloughed by NJA. I believe the union would entertain giving up some of the scope providing that EJM has to hire up those affected and probably providing some kind of further protections- also very unlikely. Honestly, the main job of the union is to protect the jobs of those in the union. If the union believes the company is going to go down the pooper without scope erosion, maybe it would happen, but as it is now the company is NOT losing money. The vast majority of pilots will not accept any erosion of our contract unless the company can truly convince us that without concessions the company will die. The majority of us towards the bottom would rather be furloughed with a hope of coming back to a descent job than give up concessions. If the economy truly goes down the crapper, there are going to be some hard choices for all involved, but a profitable company isn't getting free reign to outsource my job or take one cent of concessions from me.

 

[fischman]

And NJA is in a better financial position to stay in business, thereby preserving our jobs. If we ain't profitable, we lose our jobs.

We are operationally profitable. We are doing our part. The owners love us. We deserve to keep our jobs. We deserve to keep our CBA in tact.

Why do you have such a low self worth?

 

[imacdog]

Let's see G4 resign his seniority and go to EJM. Yeah, not gonna happen. He's willing to stab other pilots in the back, but just wouldn't want to do what he wishes on others.

 

[KiddDynomite]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

 

[Jack Campbell]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

Its a shame the furloughees get to hear about this on FI instead of a unified union board.

 

[pilotyip]

CE750Driver, I found it, it is in the "Union Busting 101" thread. First page Luthi talks about at least a 10% cut in operations and the company going for a 30% cut in pay and benefits. Time for this group to light a fire under the sales department!

I know we are having a private conversation in a public form, and doing anything that does not support the theme of the thread is often severely frowned upon. All that being said, does anyone care about company busting? You know the union adage of "More pay and more days off" until you have all your days off with no pay. However only my experience in union operations.

 

[OPECJet]

I know we are having a private conversation in a public form, and doing anything that does not support the theme of the thread is often severely frowned upon. All that being said, does anyone care about company busting? You know the union adage of "More pay and more days off" until you have all your days off with no pay. However only my experience in union operations.

Yip, in this case the company is busting itself and asking the pilot group to support it. There is no real leadership, and the current president has no plan other than the unsustainable one handed to him by a criminal who's only goal was to further his career.

 

[OPECJet]

Its a shame the furloughees get to hear about this on FI instead of a unified union board.

Amen to that.

 

[KiddDynomite]

I personally don't want to engage in any form of busting. I want to see NJA thrive and not just survive. It has the potential to be a great job. The problem is two fold, the current managment team does not see the pilot group as allies but as enemies. Management is sticking to the tried and failed concept of lead by decree and intimidation not by respect. They see the union and our contract as an obstacle. The other problem is we are in a failing economy and sales are not there. Now if management communicated this to the pilot group and viewed the union as a partner to service our clients and work together through these difficult times things would be much better. The problem is they are choosing the failed idea of attacking our contract. It really does not matter if sales or flying are down, the pilot group are the frontline service providers who operate in a demanding environment and we do beyond an excellent job doing it! If they need to furlough more than do it, concessions never save jobs. I for one am tired of working in an adversarial enviroment where everything is about reprisals. It takes away from our ability to safely operate. This management team needs to start doing just that, manage this company and enable us to continue to provide the excellent service we pilots do to the people who can afford it!