well that was quick.....

[AeroBoy]

G4dude, if you're pro-free market, then wouldn't you be pro-contract since that's how businesses do things in the free market? And since NetJets has contracts with aircraft manufacturers, service providers and other companies, shouldn't they have the same written binding agreement for employees, too? From a company perspective, it's much more efficient to have one contract with all employees, and that my friend requires a union.

 

[BentOver]

And just like that NetJets Middle East is no more.....

 

[jonjuan]

the company is profitable at this time. Period.

says who? Period.

 

[G4dude]

G4dude, if you're pro-free market, then wouldn't you be pro-contract since that's how businesses do things in the free market? And since NetJets has contracts with aircraft manufacturers, service providers and other companies, shouldn't they have the same written binding agreement for employees, too? From a company perspective, it's much more efficient to have one contract with all employees, and that my friend requires a union.

Very good question! No, in my opinion, union contracts are not the result of the free market, but of a coercive government enforced struggle. An agreement between an INDIVIDUAL and a company is an excellent example of the free market, however. As for a union relationship being more efficient for a company, absolutely not, because unions result in lower productivity, reduced ability of the company to adjust to changes in the marketplace, a deterioration of worker/management relations due to the union's desire for the workers to feel they REALLY need the union, and featherbedding, among other factors I am too tired tonight to cite.

 

[imacdog]

I believe the same could be said for all business contracts. Sigh.

 

[KiddDynomite]

Very good question! No, in my opinion, union contracts are not the result of the free market, but of a coercive government enforced struggle. An agreement between an INDIVIDUAL and a company is an excellent example of the free market, however. As for a union relationship being more efficient for a company, absolutely not, because unions result in lower productivity, reduced ability of the company to adjust to changes in the marketplace, a deterioration of worker/management relations due to the union's desire for the workers to feel they REALLY need the union, and featherbedding, among other factors I am too tired tonight to cite.

I would agree with that statement in the context of a factory but not in aviation! If aviation companies were run by upright respectable people that would be true but the infortunate relaity is they are not. I can guarantee you would have a Bway.1 arrival if you fatigued without the protections of the contract. Aviation is the one industry where a union needed. It's not just economics.

 

[CE750Driver]

Thank you JTF. some people only read what they want because they cannot see the reality in front of them. This isn't meant to be a dig just stating a fact. It's all in there. we are heading for some harsh times.

Kid, I love you opinion on scope! Really.

But, you should not post that "Luthi stated the company is going to keep shrinking over the next ten years."

Not so, you put together a bunch of posts and summarized that on your own.

He NEVER stated that in ANY post on the union message board.
Just plain wrong to claim that. I have talked to a steward about this tonight.

I may not "see the reality in front of me", but, you dont read what is written right in front of you.

 

[G4dude]

I would agree with that statement in the context of a factory but not in aviation! If aviation companies were run by upright respectable people that would be true but the infortunate relaity is they are not. I can guarantee you would have a Bway.1 arrival if you fatigued without the protections of the contract. Aviation is the one industry where a union needed. It's not just economics.

We have the FAA to protect us from situations like that. Also, we flew for years with no union...oh screw it, been down that conversational road already.

 

[G4dude]

I believe the same could be said for all business contracts. Sigh.

Business contracts are between one company and another, between 2 entities. A union contract is between a company (one entity) and the union, which does not represent the interests of all the workers, just a majority. In my free market system, an agreement between one company and one worker is the way to do it. Then, each worker's interests are satisfied, not just a majority of the group's. If the individual worker is not satisfied, (s)he has the option to not complete the agreement. No need for strikes or slowdowns or class warfare discussions on Flightinfo. No coercive rule by the Majority. We are Individuals, not Members of a Herd.

 

[OPECJet]

We have the FAA to protect us from situations like that. Also, we flew for years with no union...oh screw it, been down that conversational road already.

Oh yeah.... The FAA.... Federally Aiding Airlines.... THEY'RE our buddies..... Having the FAA watch out for your best interest in the realm of commercial aviation as akin to letting a coyote watch your chihuahua. Reference Part 121 flight and duty limitations as an example. How many people have been killed as a result, yet the FAA has done nothing until Congress applies pressure, then it still takes years.

Regarding your opinion on unions in aviation, I won't attempt to influence your opinion, however I do highly suggest you start digging into the Railway Labor Act. Your ideas of how the real world works are off.

 

[KiddDynomite]

Kid, I love you opinion on scope! Really.

But, you should not post that "Luthi stated the company is going to keep shrinking over the next ten years."

Not so, you put together a bunch of posts and summarized that on your own.

He NEVER stated that in ANY post on the union message board.
Just plain wrong to claim that. I have talked to a steward about this tonight.

I may not "see the reality in front of me", but, you dont read what is written right in front of you.

Brews on me then!! BUt it is undeniable that the clowns running the show are shrinking the circus. We need to hold their feet to the fire.

 

[imacdog]

Business contracts are between one company and another, between 2 entities. A union contract is between a company (one entity) and the union, which does not represent the interests of all the workers, just a majority. In my free market system, an agreement between one company and one worker is the way to do it. Then, each worker's interests are satisfied, not just a majority of the group's. If the individual worker is not satisfied, (s)he has the option to not complete the agreement. No need for strikes or slowdowns or class warfare discussions on Flightinfo. No coercive rule by the Majority. We are Individuals, not Members of a Herd.

In that case it might be best for you to move on from NJA, as then you will be able to look for a place to have a single contract with your employer.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Two senior G drivers just did last month in case you hadn't heard. Woo-hoo. Moved up two numbers...

 

[imacdog]

I hadn't heard that because I don't have access to the big boy board. Good for them though, hopefully they found good work.

 

[G4dude]

In that case it might be best for you to move on from NJA, as then you will be able to look for a place to have a single contract with your employer.

That is what I had before being forced to join the union. (and I know I could have opted to just pay the dues, which is a distinction without a difference.) At my age, I am probably stuck here, which is fine as long as the Union doesn't begin a war with the company.

 

[G4dude]

Two senior G drivers just did last month in case you hadn't heard. Woo-hoo. Moved up two numbers...

Pretty cool! I hope they enjoy the new gig! Is their plane a 550?

 

[imacdog]

Well the choice is yours, no one is holding a gun to your head to stay. Since you are choosing to stay though, you might as well get used to the idea of being in a union shop.

 

[G4dude]

Well the choice is yours, no one is holding a gun to your head to stay. Since you are choosing to stay though, you might as well get used to the idea of being in a union shop.

I love the job, dislike the union. Planning to stay, but the job was better before the union sucked us in.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Let's see, we had FamilyGuy for the '05 contract who managed to go away after it was signed. Then we had B19 for the FLOPS battle who has gone away after their contract was signed.

Now that management wants to open up Section 6 next year, ALL OF THE SUDDEN G4 comes out of the woodwork.

Yeah... No ulterior motives. We are smarter than that. Please don't insult our intelligence. This is an OLD union busting tactic that we don't fall for.

Fischman, I never really went away. I've always been here, just decided that everything I'd said had come true and there was little more to be stated. All of you wanted to say I was wrong, yet every single thing I predicted came true, didn't it?

It was never about the FLOPS contract which was a joke when compared to what it could have been had the union negotiated in good faith instead of dragging it out.

That little gem of a NJ contract is killing the company isn't it? Just as I said it would. Every single thing I squawked about is happening.

'Nuff said.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I love the job, dislike the union. Planning to stay, but the job was better before the union sucked us in.

They need to add a "LIKE" button...

 

[squonk]

That little gem of a NJ crooked management team is killing the company isn't it?

There. Fixed it for ya!

 

[B19 Flyer]

I personally don't want to engage in any form of busting. I want to see NJA thrive and not just survive. It has the potential to be a great job. The problem is two fold, the current managment team does not see the pilot group as allies but as enemies. Management is sticking to the tried and failed concept of lead by decree and intimidation not by respect. They see the union and our contract as an obstacle. The other problem is we are in a failing economy and sales are not there. Now if management communicated this to the pilot group and viewed the union as a partner to service our clients and work together through these difficult times things would be much better. The problem is they are choosing the failed idea of attacking our contract. It really does not matter if sales or flying are down, the pilot group are the frontline service providers who operate in a demanding environment and we do beyond an excellent job doing it! If they need to furlough more than do it, concessions never save jobs. I for one am tired of working in an adversarial enviroment where everything is about reprisals. It takes away from our ability to safely operate. This management team needs to start doing just that, manage this company and enable us to continue to provide the excellent service we pilots do to the people who can afford it!

Too funny.... Do you really believe this?

The contract is an obstacle. Try and get rid of your cell phone early and see what the penalty is so you can save a few bucks on your bill. Think that's aggravating? Try doing that with a union contract that is way overpriced.

 

[squonk]

Let's see, we had FamilyGuy for the '05 contract who managed to go away after it was signed. Then we had B19 for the FLOPS battle who has gone away after their contract was signed.

Now that management wants to open up Section 6 next year, ALL OF THE SUDDEN G4 comes out of the woodwork.

Yeah... No ulterior motives. We are smarter than that. Please don't insult our intelligence. This is an OLD union busting tactic that we don't fall for.

Yep. Nice sleuth work fisch. Notice how G4 canvases every thread and never fails to get the anti-union dig in...even going so far to answer every post darn near! Just like our aforementioned buddies from days gone past.

I do encourage it though. Keeps our debating skills sharp!

 

[gutshotdraw]

I hadn't heard that because I don't have access to the big boy board. Good for them though, hopefully they found good work.

One of our ( now former ) HUGE moneybag clients that got tired of being told NO and bought their own G-550. The rest of the family will be departing the pattern as well when their contracts expire ( so I'm told ).



And it wasn't on the " big boy board." NJI types don't post there. Small wonder.

 

[OPECJet]

Yep. Nice sleuth work fisch. Notice how G4 canvases every thread and never fails to get the anti-union dig in...even going so far to answer every post darn near! Just like our aforementioned buddies from days gone past.

I do encourage it though. Keeps our debating skills sharp!

Eyer or Noe. Even if he isn't one of those two, they can put it in their file that Sir Opecjet says to kiss his foot. Butt snorkleing morons.... (ask your Navy buds what that is if you don't know. I don't want to be accused of throwing innuendo around again).

 

[KiddDynomite]

Too funny.... Do you really believe this?

The contract is an obstacle. Try and get rid of your cell phone early and see what the penalty is so you can save a few bucks on your bill. Think that's aggravating? Try doing that with a union contract that is way overpriced.

Sorry B19 I'm not taking the bait! I posted truth and if a management troll like yourself can't handle it tough. We're in a weak economy with a model that has run it's course. If NJA needs to furlough then furlough! They don't need to keep threatening and picking a fight. The Globals are a carrot and I truly believe that there is no one in management with the ability to right this ship.The attacks on the union and the pilot group prove this. I want you to give me solid evidence instead of innuendo as to how the contract is harming the company. Is it the 401k match? Okay let's negotiate a deal then. Is it healthcare? Another easy negotiation. Is it pay? There's another. What is it exactly? Oh I know your answer, SCOPE. Sorry that, BS isn't going to fly. You people simply want to downsize and outsource. Guess what you might as well close the doors because customers want to ride in their own aircraft with gold ties not mom and pop charter. Nice try though. Try actually running the company. How about retooling operations and making it efficient. Yeah that would be a good start. That won't happen though because we have to make this a battle to cover your own incompetence as a manager.

 

[dime line]

It was never about the FLOPS contract which was a joke when compared to what it could have been had the union negotiated in good faith instead of dragging it out.

what an fing idiot

 

[bluepost]

I love the job, dislike the union. Planning to stay, but the job was better before the union sucked us in.

"THE UNION" got you your 7 and 7 schedule, holiday pay, OT, protected your zero premium health care and 401k contributions.

 

[Grizz]

Why are guys arguing with this troll? You feed a troll and he just keeps coming back. He can't scare up a set of cojones to post using his real name - therefore to me - his posted opinion is absolutely worthless. Treat it as such, ignore his ignorant ass and he'll go away.

 

[B19 Flyer]

what an fing idiot

Still at it, eh Dimeline? So, is that Beavis or Butthead, never could tell them apart. Contract sucks, doesn't it? Blame your representation.