well that was quick.....

[gret]

Posts #177 & #178 are embarrassing and disrespectful to all the other people at an aviation company. Do you two guys really believe this horse crap that you wrote?

You're delusional about your current/former careers and your importance.

 

[imacdog]

Was what I said untrue?

 

[OPECJet]

You management types amuse me. I'll spell it out for you guys, however:

You tow Jordie's line and push on the union to cave on scope. The pilots don't cave and after the contract becomes amendable the company stonewalls in mediation, gets released and locks out the pilots. The company farms out the work to EJM and whatever amount of the seniority list decides to scab. The flights ops department finally gets to the size Jordie wants, then he fires your arses because you're not needed anymore. Elapsed time to your NJA departure? About 14 months from now.

Another possibility is all of you management types exercising your brains and using safety in numbers to push back against Idiot Hansell. If you're all on the same team with a united front, he'll be the one out on his arse. You guys have the knowledge to put the company back together, grow it, and return a handsome amount to BH in the process.

Don't let stupidity and naivety get in the way of making an effort to fix NetJets. If you retain the status quo, the end result is an unemployment line. NJA's failure will be pinned on your shoulders. DB Hansell will go back to attorneyville, you all will be begging for right seats in corporate flight depts and airlines. You're management days will be over as you were midshipmen in what was the largest fractional provider, now defuct at the hands of your leadership.

 

[Pervis]

Pretty much every company with more than 3000 employess seems to pull it off. Are you implying that pilots are not smart enough to negotiate on their own?

Laughable. Any further direct response to you is a waste of time. You and your ilk have lost. Why not ride on M. Levitt's coat tails and write another book from your perspective. I'm sure your book will become a best seller.

 

[brokeflyer]

gret....from what iv'e heard...no one cares what you say. I've been retired for over a year now to give more junior pilots a shot. my first type rating was in a dc7.....i've seen it all...ive been in unions and ive been a chief pilot at deltawest... I dont care if you dont like my post, or even if you disrespect me.

If you try to stir up ******************** with me you only get caught jerking off.....

 

[gret]

Guess I was right.

 

[G4dude]

Ah, there is is...I knew it was here someplace. Change that number to $160,000 to include benefits, taxes, work rules and training, etc... you're number will be a little closer to reality. Those are fixed costs based on the CBA. Management has nothing to say about it.

Yep, just like GM in my earlier post. I am afraid NJA is at that middle to late stage union strangulation timeline, during which we lose owners because our cost structure is significantly higher than our competitors', especially during these flat economic times with another recession looming. Eventually, when a Lorenzo comes along, he will be vilified by the same lunatics who so devalued the company by their union activities. I had hoped our union would be more intelligent, and maybe it will be, but I am worried we are seeing a replay of Eastern Airlines beginning. Maybe not. Maybe the Crazies are outnumbered by the more normal among us. One can only hope.

 

[G4dude]

you're not gonna find a lotta sympathy for any company from a pilot. Pilots are the skilled, educated experts at the business at hand. They expect and deserve to paid accordingly. If its from a union or proper management, one way or another they will get it.


pay your employees a fair wage with proper work conditions and you will have a good balance. the problem is management takes, takes, takes and then acts suprised when a union shows up. I dont really care for unions myself, but if it wasnt for a union, the skilled experts would be no different than a 10 year old Philippine kid making jeans.

sorry that upsets you but i dont make the rules.

Do you really think we are underpaid and unappreciated? This is, by far, the best job I ever had. And I had a lot. I read what you say about my job and company, and it is like reading about some other company.

 

[pilotyip]

Do you really think we are underpaid and unappreciated? This is, by far, the best job I ever had. And I had a lot. I read what you say about my job and company, and it is like reading about some other company.

No one who flies because they like to has this problem, all of the furlougees working with me are planning on going back in a heartbeat, because the job at NJ is so far superior to almost anything else out there.

Fly because you like to..........................................may be disappointed

 

[fischman]

Do you really think we are underpaid and unappreciated?

Yes, and yes.

 

[fischman]

It appears that NetJets and FLOPS use the same union busters. Apparently they got their check, and it appears to be a full court press. What a waste of money.

Too bad it's a sophomoric attempt. I was hoping for a surprise and a challenge. Oh well...



Pilots: This is what management thinks of US. They would rather fork a ton of money to a union busting law firm to FIGHT us rather than work WITH us. If this isn't upsetting, then I can't help you.

Gutshotdraw, the union doesn't pick a fight. As you can see, management lobbed the first grenade. We, the pilots(that includes you), are only defending the CBA that the COMPANY agreed to.

 

[imacdog]

Guess I was right.

You didn't answer my question so I'll repeat it.

Can a professional pilot, with no prior management experience, be placed into a management position?

Can a manager, with no prior flight experience, be placed into a pilot position?

(same goes for mechanics and other highly trained, certified employees)

To give you a hint on the answer, do a search for the Delta bankruptcy talks in court on why pilots deserve the wages they make.

Then you can get back to me on whether you were right or not.

 

[G4dude]

Yes, and yes.

Same job with the same company, different opinions. Two different outlooks. Makes for interesting conversations, for sure.

 

[G4dude]

You didn't answer my question so I'll repeat it.

Can a professional pilot, with no prior management experience, be placed into a management position?

Can a manager, with no prior flight experience, be placed into a pilot position?

(same goes for mechanics and other highly trained, certified employees)

To give you a hint on the answer, do a search for the Delta bankruptcy talks in court on why pilots deserve the wages they make.

Then you can get back to me on whether you were right or not.

If our competitors can get perfectly adequate pilots for significantly less than we are paid, then it doesn't matter what your opinion of our worth is. The marketplace doesn't really care. We will slowly go out of business while you tell us how valuable we are.

 

[fischman]

Same job with the same company, different opinions. Two different outlooks. Makes for interesting conversations, for sure.

You may work "for" my company, but you are not employed by them.

 

[jenex]

Are downgrades in the contract? Why has company not done that?

 

[Hogprint]

It appears that NetJets and FLOPS use the same union busters. Apparently they got their check, and it appears to be a full court press. What a waste of money.

Too bad it's a sophomoric attempt. I was hoping for a surprise and a challenge. Oh well...



Pilots: This is what management thinks of US. They would rather fork a ton of money to a union busting law firm to FIGHT us rather than work WITH us. If this isn't upsetting, then I can't help you.

Gutshotdraw, the union doesn't pick a fight. As you can see, management lobbed the first grenade. We, the pilots(that includes you), are only defending the CBA that the COMPANY agreed to.

I can't decide if he's on the payroll or just a clueless former fair haired child of Okatie who's decided to go rouge/militant on the message board (the anonymous one it must be pointed out...) to air grievances.

As you say if he's being paid they aint gett'n their money's worth! :laugh:

Hey G4...I'm going to give you a little bit-O-advice...If yer yapp'n away on here and your former and current Gwhiz bubbas aren't coming in to back you up...You're pzz'n in the wind...

 

[BentOver]

If a Union busting shop IS on the payroll it would have to be reported on financial statements from NJA...(I used to know what reports but it's been a while since I researched it)..

Of course it wouldn't be titled "Union BUSTING legal firm". It would show up as "Labor relations something-or-other"

I believe a youtube of the "Union busting 101" guy will reveal what is reported. And then a quick google search gets you to the government website that has the reporting requirements, and what forms are in play...

Hope that made some sense..

 

[BentOver]

Hey G4...I'm going to give you a little bit-O-advice...If yer yapp'n away on here and your former and current Gwhiz bubbas aren't coming in to back you up...You're pzz'n in the wind...

Luckily, it is pretty apparent that no matter what this fool (G4) says...We really don't have to worry because we know 2 things:

It will never get to a vote

OR if it did, it would never pass...

This whole conversation is nothing but semantics for an event that will never occur. But it sure is fun ......

 

[fischman]

+1...

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gutshotdraw, the union doesn't pick a fight. As you can see, management lobbed the first grenade. We, the pilots(that includes you), are only defending the CBA that the COMPANY agreed to.

Don't drag me back into this poo-flinging contest.

I'm reasonably sure I know who G4 is and he isn't management or a paid "consultant." BTW G4, answer the PM....

What I AM sure of is that he holds a different opinion than most of you on these issues. Engage him on the merits. When you just denigrate him (or others) and accuse him of being stupid or a management stooge, you only make yourselves look petty and you damage the credibility of your position.

What I am ABSOLUTELY sure of is that this company is at the proverbial "fork in the road." Problem is, it's a roundabout with roads leading off in four different directions and all the signs are painted in Sanskrit. I think two of them end at a very deep canyon and the other two are pretty bumpy cobblestone roads that wander off across the countryside. Which one we end up on? Well, that's where I get a little fuzzy...

Now. As with that other board, I'm OUT.

 

[jtf]

Are downgrades in the contract? Why has company not done that?

Downgrades are in the contract, but the union made the requirements very difficult for the company to comply with and make the downgrades. If the company shrinks like crazy and replaces the fleet with different types of airframes, I'd imagine they could do it in a way to knock quite a few PICs down to SIC. We will see.

 

[Hogprint]

Luckily, it is pretty apparent that no matter what this fool (G4) says...We really don't have to worry because we know 2 things:

It will never get to a vote

OR if it did, it would never pass...

This whole conversation is nothing but semantics for an event that will never occur. But it sure is fun ......

I'm with you 100%...But is sure is fun!

 

[jtf]

If our competitors can get perfectly adequate pilots for significantly less than we are paid, then it doesn't matter what your opinion of our worth is. The marketplace doesn't really care. We will slowly go out of business while you tell us how valuable we are.

In that case we will have CA and Flex on the street with us since they are paid darn near the same.

 

[G4dude]

You may work "for" my company, but you are not employed by them.

I don't understand. Clarification, please?

 

[G4dude]

Don't drag me back into this poo-flinging contest.

I'm reasonably sure I know who G4 is and he isn't management or a paid "consultant." BTW G4, answer the PM....

What I AM sure of is that he holds a different opinion than most of you on these issues. Engage him on the merits. When you just denigrate him (or others) and accuse him of being stupid or a management stooge, you only make yourselves look petty and you damage the credibility of your position.

What I am ABSOLUTELY sure of is that this company is at the proverbial "fork in the road." Problem is, it's a roundabout with roads leading off in four different directions and all the signs are painted in Sanskrit. I think two of them end at a very deep canyon and the other two are pretty bumpy cobblestone roads that wander off across the countryside. Which one we end up on? Well, that's where I get a little fuzzy...

Now. As with that other board, I'm OUT.

Thanks, Gut. Check your messages, I just responded to yours. Cheers!

 

[G4dude]

I can't decide if he's on the payroll or just a clueless former fair haired child of Okatie who's decided to go rouge/militant on the message board (the anonymous one it must be pointed out...) to air grievances.

As you say if he's being paid they aint gett'n their money's worth! :laugh:

Hey G4...I'm going to give you a little bit-O-advice...If yer yapp'n away on here and your former and current Gwhiz bubbas aren't coming in to back you up...You're pzz'n in the wind...

It was a funny post, I know. The reason I was surprised by the intensity of pilots' feelings about scope is that we aren't even discussing it on the large cabin "Guffstreams", other than to wonder why y'all want to tie the company's hands during our busy season, requiring extra pilots on payroll, otherwise know as FEATHERBEDDING." Also, many of my colleagues know I post here. They smile and tell me I am wasting my time, that there is very little rational life out there in the universe.

 

[imacdog]

Again, the company's hands are not tied. They may subcontract on as many days as they wish. Why you are not understanding this is beyond me.

 

[G4dude]

Again, the company's hands are not tied. They may subcontract on as many days as they wish. Why you are not understanding this is beyond me.

Really? Then what is the union's concern? What is the problem, specifically? I used to only not understand how unions think the way they do, now I don't even understand WHAT they are thinking.

 

[brokeflyer]

Really? Then what is the union's concern? What is the problem, specifically? I used to only not understand how unions think the way they do, now I don't even understand WHAT they are thinking.

you dont understand. What would you say if the company wanted to terminate you because they can get someone to fly your plane for $30k cheaper than they paid you? Or I should say, they can hire someone who negotiated a cheaper rate than you?

how would you feel about that?