USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[dispatchguy]

To all of the AWA crews I flew with as a former AWA dispatcher, I sincerely wish them the best of luck.

I think this is just the uncircumcised tip of the John Holmes Memorial screwing you are about to get...

Nothing but malice will come from this decertification; and that the UAL Summer of Love 2000 Style will look like a big Kum-baya convention in relation to the lovefest which is going to be USAirways.

I think Dougie was drunk the day he signed the merger agreement; for in all actuality, had it not been for AWE, USAir would be nothing but another memory; and this is the thanks you get, a rodgering the likes before you have never seen...

 

[BeCareful!]

As a former USAir pilot, I watched this with interest. About the only argument that I heard from the pro-ALPA side was that an independent union was incapable of providing the support that a national union could, forgetting that there are some very successful independent pilot unions (SWAPA, APA, UPS). Not once did I hear any acknowledgement of the very visible mistakes that ALPA had made over the years (pensions, B-scales, crossing of other unions picket lines, age 65 and the general fall of U.S. pilots from the highest paid to some of the lowest in the world, etc.) or that some kinds of change might be appropriate. Add to that a large enough number of pilots who thought that they really had nothing left to lose and the result is not surprising at all. While I question whether USAPA has a legal leg to stand on regarding overturning the arbitration, there is a large enough number of pilots from the east that don't have much else to lose by giving it a try that they were able to de-certify the union. This in itself is a prime example of mismanagement of the process by ALPA national (and ALPA USAirways).

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side. While I acknowledge the argument that the arbitration was agreed to and binding, I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired. By not addressing that issue, whether they legally had to or not, they helped to achieve this outcome.

Regarding the west pilots not contributing to the new union; I'm no expert but I believe that laws exist (or it just might be contractual language - I'm not sure) that require even pilots who choose not to join the union to contribute some amount for the administration of their contract or face termination.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think that anyone will disagree that this has been a complete mess - and it's a mess that certainly started with ALPA.

Gillegan -

That was about the most rational viewpoint I've seen expressed here. Unfortunately, that sort of intelligent input isn't well tolerated here on FI.com.

BC

 

[Correcting]

The arbitrators decision will never be overruled, no way, no how. Those who think it can/will be overturned do not understand the first thing about binding arbitration. Unless it can be shown that fraud was involved, or that the arbitrator grossly misinterpreted a law/contract, then the ruling will stand forever and ever.

Want a recent real world example. Netjets mmgt got a ruling from an arbitrator a couple years back that they didn't like. What did they do? They appealed it three times, all the way to the federal district court level, and lost all three times, paying the union's expenses the whole way. Each time, the judge on each case became a little more perturbed with Netjets mmgt for even bothering to appeal the ruling over and over again.

Here's a little something from the final ruling:

Because reviewing courts are bound by the facts as found by the arbitrator, the following
summary is largely based on the fact statement in the decision of the Board. As the Supreme Court held in United Paperworkers International Union v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29, 38 (1987), “an arbitrator must find facts and a court may not reject those findings simply because it disagrees with them.” Indeed 45 U.S.C. § 153 First (p),(q) of the RLA provides that “the findings and order of the
division of the Adjustment Board shall be conclusive on the parties.”

Don't believe me, look it up, it's all part of the public record.

Netjets vs IBT case #06-3851

 

[PHXFLYR]

Nothing like reaching out to save a drowning victim and all they do is grab you and pull you under.

Godspeed to ALL the pilots at AWA. I'm tired of seeing more airline pilots out of work.

Thanks Cobra. Appreciate the sentiment. Whats really sad in all of this especially when one considers all the mergers headed our way is that in their zeal to decertify ALPA, the easties have unwittingy created a template to bust the union that would make Frank Lorenzo's chest swell with pride. And the damn thing about it is , you can almost say that it's beautiful in it's simplicity, if nothing else. Just make sure that your side has more pilots on your roster than the other side does . Have a bitter, ignorant, ill-informed workforce who thinks the world owes them a living, start a decert drive and - PRESTO - ALPA gets shown the door. Nice ,huh ?? Good luck in your endeavors with Delta. I sincerly hope that they are a little more amicable and realistic in their attempt to hammer something out at the table with you guys without the need for Mediation or Binding Arbitration than the goons we were unfortunatly paired up with were. I wish you and all my ALPA brothers and sisters at both NWA and Delta Godspeed ,fair skies and tailwinds in your merger ahead.


PHXFLYR

 

[Wino]

Correcting.

That is true, and that is the problem with binding arbitration, even when the arbitrator makes a mistake its virtually impossible to fix. And Arbitrators do make mistakes, plenty of them.

The mistake this time was the lack of fences. The fairness of a merger is NOT determined by the seniority number of the parties invovled. NO ONE will even like their seniority number unless they are top dog.

Fairness in a merger is generated by fences. THat is what protects the career expectations of pilots. The aging of a list is what is protected by a fence.

Had there been a realistic fence between the east and the west then the easties would have had their time of service respected with a career progression similar to what would have happened as a stand alone.

West could have fixed this by fencing off the USair bases, even after the award. Instead the arbitatrator made a mistake and the Westies got just as greedy with the mistake as the Easties were in the initial negotiation. They decided they were going to steal all the retirements out east for themselves. Well congrats, now you are USAPA

Cheers
Wino

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'm beginning to see why you chose "Wino" as your screen name.

PHXFLYR

 

[Wino]

Been through more mergers than you, from both sides of them, I know of what I speak.

Diss me any way you want, but I am not an employee of your airline, and I took the time to read the WHOLE award, and it is seriously flawed.

East was greedy first, West was greedy last. Looks like you made your own bed and the result is entirely predictable.

The Award may stand, but who says SENIORITY will have to be used for bidding in the next contract, maybe the language will be written so LONGEVITY determines bidding.

A simple fence around Philly would have solved all your problems (if of course you guys really meant it when you said the westies had no interest in going East to fly) Could have easily been done AFTER the arbitration award and you wouldn't be in the mess you are in today.



Cheers
Wino

PS The independant Unions have been doing pretty good lately. UPS AA Southwest... Maybe ALPA's time really has come and gone. I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

 

[Jet41]

Management is just sitting back licking their chops.

You are ALL now, "OFFICIALLY F-CKED".

Yay TEAM!

YKMKR

They already were

 

[TWA Dude]

Diss me any way you want, but I am not an employee of your airline, and I took the time to read the WHOLE award, and it is seriously flawed.

So then you're smarter than arbitrator Nicolau? The Award wasn't flawed; you just disagree with it because you likely favor DOH.

East was greedy first, West was greedy last.

If simply realizing a binding arbitration is actually binding makes us greedy in your view I can live with that. The sky obviously isn't blue in your world.

A simple fence around Philly would have solved all your problems (if of course you guys really meant it when you said the westies had no interest in going East to fly)

Wow, so simple? Why didn't the arbitrator think of that? I can tell you: fences don't protect from furloughs. A DOH integration would've made 3/4 of the AWA pilots furlough-fodder.

The lessons of NW/Republic and OZ/TW are that long-term fences only prolong the misery and divisiveness of mergers. That's why Nicolau only put a two-year fence. People like you apparently love divisiveness.

Could have easily been done AFTER the arbitration award and you wouldn't be in the mess you are in today.

Ah, yes, the time-honored tradition of blaming the victim. It's all the West's fault because when the East didn't like the arbitrated list we didn't bow to their every desire. You're worse than my ex-wife. (Actually I'm not divorced but y'all understand the sentiment.)

PS The independant Unions have been doing pretty good lately. UPS AA Southwest... Maybe ALPA's time really has come and gone.

OMFG, you think those unions deserve the credit for their airline's prosperity? When an airline is prosperous every pilot loves their union. But when things get tough everyone looks to their union to fix everything -- an impossible job. Just look at the USAir Easties: everything that happened to them was ALPA's fault. I feel very comfortable making this prediction: very soon everything will be USAPA's fault. Scapegoatism is alive and well in the East.

I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

Now that's funny. I'm sure every regional pilot agrees with you that ALPA has paid way too much attention to them.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

PS The independant Unions have been doing pretty good lately. UPS AA Southwest... Maybe ALPA's time really has come and gone. I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

one problem....those unions are unified..this has no chance

 

[SaturnPilot]

Regarding the west pilots not contributing to the new union; I'm no expert but I believe that laws exist (or it just might be contractual language - I'm not sure) that require even pilots who choose not to join the union to contribute some amount for the administration of their contract or face termination.

This is usually enforced as a contractual requirement. The problem is, if you fire one person for failing to pay dues, you legally have to fire them all...thereby making it an impossibility for USAPA to enforce around 1700 pilots to pay dues who refuse to. To do otherwise would be disparity of treatment and yet another easily winnable lawsuit.

 

[Caspian27]

I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

Are you serious? ALPA has been conflicted between majors and regionals for a long time. Majors ALWAYS win.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You're making ALPA seem like the mob. And your level of devotion is kind of strange.

It was the will of the pilots. This is a democracy, remember. They were unhappy with what ALPA gave them, and so they kicked them out.

It is what it is, for better or for worse. Get over it.

Kind of sad isn't it? That you'd have pilots out there proclaiming to be your "brother" so long as you agree with them. Disagree however, and you're the first on their sh-t list.

 

[Wino]

So then you're smarter than arbitrator Nicolau? The Award wasn't flawed; you just disagree with it because you likely favor DOH.If simply realizing a binding arbitration is actually binding makes us greedy in your view I can live with that. The sky obviously isn't blue in your world.Wow, so simple? Why didn't the arbitrator think of that? I can tell you: fences don't protect from furloughs. A DOH integration would've made 3/4 of the AWA pilots furlough-fodder.

The lessons of NW/Republic and OZ/TW are that long-term fences only prolong the misery and divisiveness of mergers. That's why Nicolau only put a two-year fence. People like you apparently love divisiveness.Ah, yes, the time-honored tradition of blaming the victim. It's all the West's fault because when the East didn't like the arbitrated list we didn't bow to their every desire. You're worse than my ex-wife. (Actually I'm not divorced but y'all understand the sentiment.)OMFG, you think those unions deserve the credit for their airline's prosperity? When an airline is prosperous every pilot loves their union. But when things get tough everyone looks to their union to fix everything -- an impossible job. Just look at the USAir Easties: everything that happened to them was ALPA's fault. I feel very comfortable making this prediction: very soon everything will be USAPA's fault. Scapegoatism is alive and well in the East.Now that's funny. I'm sure every regional pilot agrees with you that ALPA has paid way too much attention to them.

You didn't even read what I wrote. I didn't say that they had to give the Easties date of hire. Just a fence to protect their career expectations. Easties would have still born the brunt of any furloughs if they happened, but they also would have benefited from the large amount of retirements that they brought to the table.

So they would have had EXACTLY the career expectations that they brought to the party. High retirements and high risk.

The lack of the fence is what made it unfair.

Cheers
Wino

 

[CopilotDoug]

Divide and Conquer, management won.

and ALPA gave them the means

 

[TWA Dude]

The lack of the fence is what made it unfair.

Okay, I guess I did misunderstand part of what you wrote.

Regarding fences, consider a few things:

Fewer than 100 West pilots reside east of the Mississippi. This means the East has little need for protection. The Transition Agreement guaranteed the West 1/3 of the E190 captain seats and a seperate arbitration award gave the West a percentage of seats on the newly acquired 757s. Chances are good not all of those slots would even be filled voluntarily by Westies.

Next, both sides met several times to discuss/negotiate possible fences. Those talks were unsuccessful because the East demanded unilateral concessions from the West. Recall that the reason this whole thing ended up in arbitration was because no agreement could be reached. I personally think the Nicolau Award is fair but my opinion is irrelevent. Just because the East doesn't think it's fair isn't a good reason for the West to concede anything.

In any case, it's a moot point now. USAPA will try to fix a mess of their own making and will fail. The result will suck for all of us.

 

[Wino]

Fewer than 100 West pilots reside east of the Mississippi.

And that is why I said that fences should be a brainless give and would make the whole thing fair. The problem is not that they reside somewhere, its when they start carpet bagging to chase the left seat, and you damn well know that they will. Just log into Allied Pilots site and see all the carpet bagging in the various bid status. Half the guys on the widebodies in NY live in florida and texas and carpetbag up to get the 8 hour turns instead of a 5 hour turn from MIA. If they will go for trip preference you better believe they will go for a left seat...

I assume you guys have PBS as well. That would magnify the need for the fence. (Seniority is everything in PBS) The fence didn't need to be one of the Infinite NWA fences either. The crewforce that got screwed was OLD. Just fence off the 89hires or whatever year that group ended before the late 90s hiring started. When the last one of those guys goes, then the fence goes down. That fence would have been 10-15 years tops (including age 65)

Then once the fence falls, no bumping, but you are stuck where you are...

THAT is where the true "career expectations" are protected. Unstable is still unstable. Stable and bland (not too many retirements) is still stable and bland.

Cheers
Wino

The whole process is screwed. And the threat of "binding arbitration" does nothing to make it more fair, because you have no ability to predict how an arbitrator will react (which is why we NEVER accept binding arbitration in a contract negotation and would rather risk a strike,) and half the time they just devide right down the middle (in which case a hard extreme line pays off) and other times the Arbitrator just goes off on some wild tangent (the Sick if Needed arbitration that APA just lost. The Arbitrator used entirely different sections on the contract than either side presented to screw the pilots, and no avenue of appeal, 20 years of case law and past practice shot to ********************)_

 

[Caveman]

Gillegan -

That was about the most rational viewpoint I've seen expressed here. Unfortunately, that sort of intelligent input isn't well tolerated here on FI.com.

BC

The first paragraph was cogent, but this one obliterated any sense of reason and objectivity he tried to portray:

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side. While I acknowledge the argument that the arbitration was agreed to and binding, I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired. By not addressing that issue, whether they legally had to or not, they helped to achieve this outcome.

YGTBFSM. Time and time again it's the East pilots screaming bloody murder, not the West. The East pilots tried to bulldozer their way through this. They demanded DOH, wouldn't yield and went all in on binding arbitration. They lost and have been hollering ever since. It's not that I haven't read a lot of heated comments from the West. They've had their fair share, but it's mostly been in the form of rebuttals to the East crying foul. There has been very, very little gloating from the West on the forums I frequent. YMMV.

East guys keep harping about career expectations. News flash: the company you used to work for doesn't exist any more. How's that for career expectations? The Airways that hired you is gone. It's over. You were lucky to secure a position with a new company that gave your top 500 folks their old seniority back and the rest of you got relative seniority. It may not be golden, but that's still a pretty good parachute and a relatively soft landing. Sorry about the furloughed guys, but they were out of work when this started so for them nothing has changed and they haven't been harmed. They didn't get the jackpot they were hoping for, but that was an unrealistic expectation that was never gonna happen. It's not the West pilots fault the furloughed Easties were living in Dreamworld.

Everybody seems to forget that the top 500 West pilots got flushed and they were the acquiring airline! How would you like it if your company bought another company and your seniority went from #1 to #501 overnight?

The Nicolau judgement was fair. It may not be a pleasant reality for the East, but it was fair. USAPA isn't going to change the outcome. All the East guys did was further alienate the other half of the LCC pilot group. Nice job boys. Let me know how that works out for you.

BTW, I could not care less about ALPA. It's the idea that a third party not involved with the arbitration is somehow to blame that puzzles me. ALPA was a bystander in this whole proceedings. They had a DFR obligation to both sides. Unless East and West could come to a mutual agreement the only possible outcome was arbitration. There was no way in hell ALPA national was gonna settle this. It would have guaranteed a lawsuit if they even tried to. Now USAPA has a DFR obligation to both sides. Good luck trying to walk that tightrope without getting sued.

What a mess........

 

[PHXFLYR]

See "So simple even a "Caveman" can "understand it !!" Sorry, my friend, I saw an opening and couldn't resist! And to be quite honest with you ,given the events of the last 24 hrs, I really needed a laugh right about now. Thanks for providing it. Good luck at Frontier , Marine

:beer:

PHXFLYR
(Don't blame me....I voted for ALPA)

 

[BeCareful!]

YGTBFSM. Time and time again it's the East pilots screaming bloody murder, not the West. The East pilots tried to bulldozer their way through this. They demanded DOH, wouldn't yield and went all in on binding arbitration..

Caveman -

Correction: East ALPA, not East pilots demanded DOH (more or less), wouldn't yield and let it go to arbitration.

They are back to line flying today because they F&#%ed too many things up.