USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[j41driver]

If the initial arbitration holds then it's a non issue.

Why wouldn't it hold??? The only thing that changed was the name of the union. It's called binding arbitration for a reason. Shouldn't have agreed to it if you weren't prepared to live with any of the possible outcomes.

 

[j41driver]

That would be somewhat difficult, as we're not represented by ALPA (unfortunately).

That was probably his point.

 

[Airline Driver]

The Roller coaster has just gone into turbo-boost. Wow Good luck both east and west. As Someone else has already stated, Management won!!! Divide and conquer.

Hell Good luck to us all! The Ground is really starting to shake and will continue for quite sometime.

 

[Flybywire44]

Its over move on. Wait till the next merger and then it will be East/West vs the American or United Pilot group...

in 8 years this will all be over... I hope. What happens to the USAPA collected dues if ALPA comes back to USAir in 4 years? Does it rollover to ALPA?

 

[Hamburger]

Oh, the irony. Had alpo not pushed for (and gotten) age 65, fences protecting the East would have remained for a while. And there would have been less old Easties voting on this. Would have definitely been a LOT closer vote; alpo may have remained on USAirways' property.
The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and well. This could be the beginning of the end of alpo.

I support ALPA, but must admit that this is absolutely true. The membership had made their stance on 60 clear many times and Prater disregarded their will. I really feel for Westies. You just got fed a turd sandwich.

 

[MINIME]

It's really sad to see this pilot group's infighting. I'm sorry for both sides, East and West. No pilot won this fight today. Unfortunately, management has outsmarted us once again. No doubt about it, we are our own worst enemies.

I truly do sympathize with both sides. I believe there are real issues that both sides feel strongly about. But it's unfortunate that cooler heads didn't prevail. This event will hurt us all eventually. We are now openly being used as Management soldiers to fight their battles against ourselves. Something has to give or we'll eventually be fighting for minimum wage jobs.

 

[Caspian27]

It's really sad to see this pilot group's infighting. I'm sorry for both sides, East and West. No pilot won this fight today. Unfortunately, management has outsmarted us once again. No doubt about it, we are our own worst enemies.

I truly do sympathize with both sides. I believe there are real issues that both sides feel strongly about. But it's unfortunate that cooler heads didn't prevail. This event will hurt us all eventually. We are now openly being used as Management soldiers to fight their battles against ourselves. Something has to give or we'll eventually be fighting for minimum wage jobs.

I agree. I too sympathize with both sides. My problem is trying to oust a binding arbitration award. This fight should've been over 11 months ago. The East would then be enjoying pay raises instead of looking at endless legal battles...

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Time for you AirTrannie types to get on the decert ALPA bandwagon.

Trannie's not even ALPA??

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Why is everyone down on USAPA? Who cares, it's funny, even guys not ALPA trying to talk trash about another union. Who cares, I think we will see much more of this soon. Chunky might not have caused US Air's mess, but he f-ed enough others, the domino's are definitely moving. BOOT CHUNKY PRATER WITH AN APOLOGY, OR WATCH RE-RUNS!

 

[Uniform Shop]

Why wouldn't it hold??? The only thing that changed was the name of the union. It's called binding arbitration for a reason. Shouldn't have agreed to it if you weren't prepared to live with any of the possible outcomes.

I don't work for U.S. Airways. I don't think they will be able to change the "binding arbitration" agreement either. If for some reason they were able to change it then the West might have another option of going to arbitration again because of this law rather then accept DOH.

I'm not choosing sides here and I don't know if the law would make a difference in this case. I was just making an observation.

Good Luck!!

 

[PCL_128]

Laws are not retroactive in this country. The law only applies to mergers that take place after its signing. It doesn't apply to mergers that are two years old already.

 

[SaturnPilot]

I was dead set on keeping ALPA on the property. That is until you began to chime in. Thanks for changing my mind and voting ALPA out. You deserve a medal.

I really hope you didn't base your vote simply on what a flightinfo poster says.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Thank the good lord nothing in my aviation career has ever depended on US Airways. Hope that good fortune keeps up. What a disaster of a company!

Ain't that the truth !!!
PHXFLYR

 

[Future Furlough]

I was dead set on keeping ALPA on the property. That is until you began to chime in. Thanks for changing my mind and voting ALPA out. You deserve a medal.

PCL doesn't even fly for USAir. Why would you care what he says? You were ALPA, just like you will be USAPA. If you don't like the results, look in the mirror.uke:

 

[Cobra17]

Vote results:

ALPA - 2254

USAPA- 2723

Thanks to the 400 or so guys on the East for voting for ALPA, I guess you're all not dumb.

Good Luck everyone.

Nothing like reaching out to save a drowning victim and all they do is grab you and pull you under.

Godspeed to ALL the pilots at AWA. I'm tired of seeing more airline pilots out of work.

 

[bravodude]

My sympathies to the AWA pilots. Burn the place to the ground. F--- uSAPa, and f--- anyone who voted for them.

said the man who does not even work for an alpa airline.

 

[waveflyer]

(17Apr2008) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Scott Theuer
April 17, 2008 US Airline Pilots Association
877-678-7272 x706


The US Airways pilots are one of the most senior and experienced pilot groups in the United States..

Is it just me or does AAA really need a dictionary?

How can a pilot be "senior" if there are no pilots underneath them?

They continually confuse longevity with seniority.

I'll ask this again- There is almost 10 years difference between the bottom recalled pilot and the first new hire in august. Their longevity is very different. Their seniority is virtually identical. Did that new hire STEAL 10 years of seniority from the furloughee?

Don't fall for DOH- our screwed up seniority system doesn't allow for that type of merger-

How many 45year olds from AAA are there that complain and complain how they are 20 year pilots who lost 16 years of seniority. Do the math? That 45 year old isn't 16 years older than the average pilot they were slotted in with.... They were hired in their mid-20's into Fokkers- New hires now are hired in their mid-30's b/c all the Fokker sized airplanes were scoped out to mesa and psa. Noone has looked out for the seniority of the young guys and you want us to be so concerned about yours?

 

[PCL_128]

They continually confuse longevity with seniority.

That's been their problem from the beginning, and they still refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Gillegan]

As a former USAir pilot, I watched this with interest. About the only argument that I heard from the pro-ALPA side was that an independent union was incapable of providing the support that a national union could, forgetting that there are some very successful independent pilot unions (SWAPA, APA, UPS). Not once did I hear any acknowledgement of the very visible mistakes that ALPA had made over the years (pensions, B-scales, crossing of other unions picket lines, age 65 and the general fall of U.S. pilots from the highest paid to some of the lowest in the world, etc.) or that some kinds of change might be appropriate. Add to that a large enough number of pilots who thought that they really had nothing left to lose and the result is not surprising at all. While I question whether USAPA has a legal leg to stand on regarding overturning the arbitration, there is a large enough number of pilots from the east that don't have much else to lose by giving it a try that they were able to de-certify the union. This in itself is a prime example of mismanagement of the process by ALPA national (and ALPA USAirways).

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side. While I acknowledge the argument that the arbitration was agreed to and binding, I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired. By not addressing that issue, whether they legally had to or not, they helped to achieve this outcome.

Regarding the west pilots not contributing to the new union; I'm no expert but I believe that laws exist (or it just might be contractual language - I'm not sure) that require even pilots who choose not to join the union to contribute some amount for the administration of their contract or face termination.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think that anyone will disagree that this has been a complete mess - and it's a mess that certainly started with ALPA.

 

[Hamburger]

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side.

I'd attribute that to the Pickleball Baby Boomers being as confused by the "internets" as they are by the definition of "binding arbitration".
If they weren't angry, this never would've happened.
If they were comprehensible, then the train wreck that's coming wouldn't have left the station in the first place.
They probably did their voting on Jitterbug cell phones.....

 

[dispatchguy]

To all of the AWA crews I flew with as a former AWA dispatcher, I sincerely wish them the best of luck.

I think this is just the uncircumcised tip of the John Holmes Memorial screwing you are about to get...

Nothing but malice will come from this decertification; and that the UAL Summer of Love 2000 Style will look like a big Kum-baya convention in relation to the lovefest which is going to be USAirways.

I think Dougie was drunk the day he signed the merger agreement; for in all actuality, had it not been for AWE, USAir would be nothing but another memory; and this is the thanks you get, a rodgering the likes before you have never seen...

 

[BeCareful!]

As a former USAir pilot, I watched this with interest. About the only argument that I heard from the pro-ALPA side was that an independent union was incapable of providing the support that a national union could, forgetting that there are some very successful independent pilot unions (SWAPA, APA, UPS). Not once did I hear any acknowledgement of the very visible mistakes that ALPA had made over the years (pensions, B-scales, crossing of other unions picket lines, age 65 and the general fall of U.S. pilots from the highest paid to some of the lowest in the world, etc.) or that some kinds of change might be appropriate. Add to that a large enough number of pilots who thought that they really had nothing left to lose and the result is not surprising at all. While I question whether USAPA has a legal leg to stand on regarding overturning the arbitration, there is a large enough number of pilots from the east that don't have much else to lose by giving it a try that they were able to de-certify the union. This in itself is a prime example of mismanagement of the process by ALPA national (and ALPA USAirways).

On this and other forums, I have heard more angry and sometimes incomprehensible rants from the AWA pilots than from the east side. While I acknowledge the argument that the arbitration was agreed to and binding, I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired. By not addressing that issue, whether they legally had to or not, they helped to achieve this outcome.

Regarding the west pilots not contributing to the new union; I'm no expert but I believe that laws exist (or it just might be contractual language - I'm not sure) that require even pilots who choose not to join the union to contribute some amount for the administration of their contract or face termination.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think that anyone will disagree that this has been a complete mess - and it's a mess that certainly started with ALPA.

Gillegan -

That was about the most rational viewpoint I've seen expressed here. Unfortunately, that sort of intelligent input isn't well tolerated here on FI.com.

BC

 

[Correcting]

The arbitrators decision will never be overruled, no way, no how. Those who think it can/will be overturned do not understand the first thing about binding arbitration. Unless it can be shown that fraud was involved, or that the arbitrator grossly misinterpreted a law/contract, then the ruling will stand forever and ever.

Want a recent real world example. Netjets mmgt got a ruling from an arbitrator a couple years back that they didn't like. What did they do? They appealed it three times, all the way to the federal district court level, and lost all three times, paying the union's expenses the whole way. Each time, the judge on each case became a little more perturbed with Netjets mmgt for even bothering to appeal the ruling over and over again.

Here's a little something from the final ruling:

Because reviewing courts are bound by the facts as found by the arbitrator, the following
summary is largely based on the fact statement in the decision of the Board. As the Supreme Court held in United Paperworkers International Union v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29, 38 (1987), “an arbitrator must find facts and a court may not reject those findings simply because it disagrees with them.” Indeed 45 U.S.C. § 153 First (p),(q) of the RLA provides that “the findings and order of the
division of the Adjustment Board shall be conclusive on the parties.”

Don't believe me, look it up, it's all part of the public record.

Netjets vs IBT case #06-3851

 

[PHXFLYR]

Nothing like reaching out to save a drowning victim and all they do is grab you and pull you under.

Godspeed to ALL the pilots at AWA. I'm tired of seeing more airline pilots out of work.

Thanks Cobra. Appreciate the sentiment. Whats really sad in all of this especially when one considers all the mergers headed our way is that in their zeal to decertify ALPA, the easties have unwittingy created a template to bust the union that would make Frank Lorenzo's chest swell with pride. And the damn thing about it is , you can almost say that it's beautiful in it's simplicity, if nothing else. Just make sure that your side has more pilots on your roster than the other side does . Have a bitter, ignorant, ill-informed workforce who thinks the world owes them a living, start a decert drive and - PRESTO - ALPA gets shown the door. Nice ,huh ?? Good luck in your endeavors with Delta. I sincerly hope that they are a little more amicable and realistic in their attempt to hammer something out at the table with you guys without the need for Mediation or Binding Arbitration than the goons we were unfortunatly paired up with were. I wish you and all my ALPA brothers and sisters at both NWA and Delta Godspeed ,fair skies and tailwinds in your merger ahead.


PHXFLYR

 

[Wino]

Correcting.

That is true, and that is the problem with binding arbitration, even when the arbitrator makes a mistake its virtually impossible to fix. And Arbitrators do make mistakes, plenty of them.

The mistake this time was the lack of fences. The fairness of a merger is NOT determined by the seniority number of the parties invovled. NO ONE will even like their seniority number unless they are top dog.

Fairness in a merger is generated by fences. THat is what protects the career expectations of pilots. The aging of a list is what is protected by a fence.

Had there been a realistic fence between the east and the west then the easties would have had their time of service respected with a career progression similar to what would have happened as a stand alone.

West could have fixed this by fencing off the USair bases, even after the award. Instead the arbitatrator made a mistake and the Westies got just as greedy with the mistake as the Easties were in the initial negotiation. They decided they were going to steal all the retirements out east for themselves. Well congrats, now you are USAPA

Cheers
Wino

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'm beginning to see why you chose "Wino" as your screen name.

PHXFLYR

 

[Wino]

Been through more mergers than you, from both sides of them, I know of what I speak.

Diss me any way you want, but I am not an employee of your airline, and I took the time to read the WHOLE award, and it is seriously flawed.

East was greedy first, West was greedy last. Looks like you made your own bed and the result is entirely predictable.

The Award may stand, but who says SENIORITY will have to be used for bidding in the next contract, maybe the language will be written so LONGEVITY determines bidding.

A simple fence around Philly would have solved all your problems (if of course you guys really meant it when you said the westies had no interest in going East to fly) Could have easily been done AFTER the arbitration award and you wouldn't be in the mess you are in today.



Cheers
Wino

PS The independant Unions have been doing pretty good lately. UPS AA Southwest... Maybe ALPA's time really has come and gone. I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

 

[Jet41]

Management is just sitting back licking their chops.

You are ALL now, "OFFICIALLY F-CKED".

Yay TEAM!

YKMKR

They already were

 

[TWA Dude]

Diss me any way you want, but I am not an employee of your airline, and I took the time to read the WHOLE award, and it is seriously flawed.

So then you're smarter than arbitrator Nicolau? The Award wasn't flawed; you just disagree with it because you likely favor DOH.

East was greedy first, West was greedy last.

If simply realizing a binding arbitration is actually binding makes us greedy in your view I can live with that. The sky obviously isn't blue in your world.

A simple fence around Philly would have solved all your problems (if of course you guys really meant it when you said the westies had no interest in going East to fly)

Wow, so simple? Why didn't the arbitrator think of that? I can tell you: fences don't protect from furloughs. A DOH integration would've made 3/4 of the AWA pilots furlough-fodder.

The lessons of NW/Republic and OZ/TW are that long-term fences only prolong the misery and divisiveness of mergers. That's why Nicolau only put a two-year fence. People like you apparently love divisiveness.

Could have easily been done AFTER the arbitration award and you wouldn't be in the mess you are in today.

Ah, yes, the time-honored tradition of blaming the victim. It's all the West's fault because when the East didn't like the arbitrated list we didn't bow to their every desire. You're worse than my ex-wife. (Actually I'm not divorced but y'all understand the sentiment.)

PS The independant Unions have been doing pretty good lately. UPS AA Southwest... Maybe ALPA's time really has come and gone.

OMFG, you think those unions deserve the credit for their airline's prosperity? When an airline is prosperous every pilot loves their union. But when things get tough everyone looks to their union to fix everything -- an impossible job. Just look at the USAir Easties: everything that happened to them was ALPA's fault. I feel very comfortable making this prediction: very soon everything will be USAPA's fault. Scapegoatism is alive and well in the East.

I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

Now that's funny. I'm sure every regional pilot agrees with you that ALPA has paid way too much attention to them.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

PS The independant Unions have been doing pretty good lately. UPS AA Southwest... Maybe ALPA's time really has come and gone. I think they got too wrapped up in the regionals to be honest with you.

one problem....those unions are unified..this has no chance