USAPA wins...Pilots lose

[Caveman]

Caveman -

Correction: East ALPA, not East pilots demanded DOH (more or less), wouldn't yield and let it go to arbitration.

They are back to line flying today because they F&#%ed too many things up.

Not sure what the distinction is, but okay. The artist formerly known as US Airways pilots. How's that?

 

[TWA Dude]

And that is why I said that fences should be a brainless give and would make the whole thing fair.

So lemme get this straight: you think a fence to protect the East from the perceived threat of 100 West pilots is all that stood in the way to an end of the dispute? I dare say the East wanted an awful lot more than that...

The whole process is screwed.

Funny, they didn't complain about it before Nicolau ruled. Not one bit.

The Arbitrator used entirely different sections on the contract than either side presented to screw the pilots, and no avenue of appeal, 20 years of case law and past practice shot to ********************)_

Arbitrators can do pretty much what they like. No sense complaining about it now. And don't forget about the two pilot neutrals who agreed with almost everything Nicolau ruled. And also don't forget, the USAir guys saw Nicolau in the '90s for the Shuttle integration. They weren't the slightest bit worried about what he might come up with. Makes you wonder about their expectations...

 

[TWA Dude]

Correction: East ALPA, not East pilots demanded DOH (more or less), wouldn't yield and let it go to arbitration.

So you wait a year to come out and say you disagreed with your rep's strategy? Reeks of hypocracy to me. I don't recall seeing one iota of criticism of the AAA MEC or Merger Committee on their work prior to Nicolau's ruling. I think they were doing exactly what the AAA pilots wanted them to do and if they'd waivered they would've been replaced.

USAPA cannot fix what's wrong with the East pilots.

 

[mesaserf]

So you wait a year to come out and say you disagreed with your rep's strategy? Reeks of hypocracy to me. I don't recall seeing one iota of criticism of the AAA MEC or Merger Committee on their work prior to Nicolau's ruling. I think they were doing exactly what the AAA pilots wanted them to do and if they'd waivered they would've been replaced.

USAPA cannot fix what's wrong with the East pilots.

That’s correct, I was in the break room raiding the snack cupboard in PHX when I overheard a conversation my fellow Mesa peeps were having with an eastie. It was during one of the first preliminary meetings between the two ALPA groups. This guy basically said that a stance of anything but date of hire would only get him recalled.

 

[BeCareful!]

Exactly!

 

[BoilerUP]

That’s correct, I was in the break room raiding the snack cupboard in PHX when I overheard a conversation my fellow Mesa peeps were having with an eastie. It was during one of the first preliminary meetings between the two ALPA groups. This guy basically said that a stance of anything but date of hire would only get him recalled.

Exactly!

So...given those facts, wasn't the rep simply following the will of the pilots he represented?

 

[CTflyer]

You're making ALPA seem like the mob. And your level of devotion is kind of strange.

It was the will of the pilots. This is a democracy, remember. They were unhappy with what ALPA gave them, and so they kicked them out.

It is what it is, for better or for worse. Get over it.

Why were they unhappy with what ALPA "gave them"? Didn't BOTH groups agree to arbitration? I am sorry that the USair got the short end of the stick but didnt AM West buy THEM out.

Where was ALPA at fault here??

 

[trainer8]

Gillegan -

That was about the most rational viewpoint I've seen expressed here. Unfortunately, that sort of intelligent input isn't well tolerated here on FI.com.

BC

Nope...No intellegence allowed. Your EXPELLED.

 

[sonny320]

Why were they unhappy with what ALPA "gave them"? Didn't BOTH groups agree to arbitration? I am sorry that the USair got the short end of the stick but didnt AM West buy THEM out.

Where was ALPA at fault here??

AWA did not spend a penny for U. It was all outside investors.

 

[waveflyer]

Gillegan's bias for DOH (which i personally disagree w/) doesn't refute the argument that in all the flooding of ALPA emails and snail mails - that they failed to inspire or answer a LOT of legitimate questions.

2700 east pilots are not all extremists- i guarantee there were at least the 300 moderates needed to swing the vote who were less than inspired by the blitzkrieg of heartless info coming from the alpa machine.
Seniority has been compromised in so many ways through scope and code-shares and mergers and dumb luck- yet alpa has refused to even look at doing it different.

We've seen the result of our current system.
it's time to play it differently....

 

[PCL_128]

Seniority has been compromised in so many ways through scope and code-shares and mergers and dumb luck- yet alpa has refused to even look at doing it different.

ALPA has looked at it repeatedly, there are simply no viable alternatives.

 

[Captzaahlie]

AWA did not spend a penny for U. It was all outside investors.

And which company arranged the outside investors?

 

[Gillegan]

Gillegan's bias for DOH (which i personally disagree w/) doesn't refute the argument that in all the flooding of ALPA emails and snail mails - that they failed to inspire or answer a LOT of legitimate questions.

I've never advocated DOH though given the tenor of my arguments, I'm not surprised that is the impression. Given the demographics of the two groups, I don't think straight DOH would have been fair and I generally agree with the principle of no windfalls. Also, I personally agree with the awards logic of slotting by relative seniority. Where I think the award is flawed is the stapling of the pilots who had been furloughed to the bottom of the list. (I also think that east guys taking the top 500 spots is also unfair.) My point has been that a large enough group of pilots (those hired between roughly 1987 and 1989) were disenfranchised that they were able to push the process to an ultimate desertification of the union and quite possibly, a folding of the airline. This process was the province of ALPA. We can spend all day pointing fingers at MEC's, negotiating committees and national officers but in the end, by virtue of this outcome, the process failed and by definition, it was an ALPA process.

I'm not at all surprised that ALPA has been thrown out but I'm not convinced that the USAirways pilots (east or entire group) will be better off with USAPA either. That we have ended up in this situation at all is the tragedy. We now have two other large groups looking to merge and join lists and I don't think that there is anyone here who thinks that it will go smoothly. It is ALPA's responsibility to sort this stuff out and in that they are failing miserably. They have not adapted well to the changes of the last 20 years and it is the pilots who are suffering for it.

I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that the west pilots should yield to everything that the east pilots are demanding. What I am saying is that they could have recognized this one large inequity and tried to address it even though they had no legal responsibility to do so. By sticking to their chant of, "the arbitration is binding, live with it", they have helped achieve this outcome. I probably haven't spent enough time acknowledging the east's pilots role in all of this either. They have been part of this process and bear a large responsibility for this outcome.

In the end, ALPA is weakened, our profession is weakened and a carrier is at some risk. We all need to step back and ask how did we get here and accept the responsibility that is ours. I truly believe that our profession is at a turning point and that decisions being made now will affect it for years to come and I'm not at all comfortable with what I am seeing.

 

[DustyBottoms]

As a former USAir pilot, I watched this with interest. About the only argument that I heard from the pro-ALPA side was that an independent union was incapable of providing the support that a national union could.

Are you kidding me? MOST of these arguments have been about, as the easties describe it, "unfair" seniority integration, not about independent unions. The reason why most of the west is pro ALPA is because of what USPA's goal is.

Whatever the outcome, I don't think that anyone will disagree that this has been a complete mess - and it's a mess that certainly started with ALPA.

After all of your web board readings you come to the conclusion that this is about ALPA? This is not about ALPA. It is about the East Pilots, who have had the misfortune of working for a company that has been mismanaged for the last decade, pushing that misfortune down the throats of a pilot group that had nothing to do with it.

I have never once heard an AWA pilot acknowledge that a large number of east pilots might have been unfairly disadvantaged by being put below west pilots who had less than 2 years with the company or who were not even out of grammar school when those east pilots were hired.

Typical emotional response… the whole grammar school logic. Pathetic.

I am on my fifth airline now. I was hired by a major 10 years ago. I am 55. I got hired at AWA in ’04. Should I have been slotted in above every pilot at America West who was hired after 1998? Or every pilot at AAA hired after that as well just because they were in grammar school when I started flying airplanes? I think not. #&%* happens. I dealt with it.

Add to that a large enough number of pilots who thought that they really had nothing left to lose and the result is not surprising at all. While I question whether USAPA has a legal leg to stand on regarding overturning the arbitration, there is a large enough number of pilots from the east that don't have much else to lose by giving it a try that they were able to de-certify the union.

Yeah, real honorable. Nothing to lose.

 

[AC560]

Where was ALPA at fault here??

In not convincing a majority of pilots to vote for ALPA to continue as their representation.

 

[Golden Falcon]

Well...now it would appear y'all have no collective bargaining agreement with your employer, as the previous one was with ALPA....door's wide open for whatever the company wants to do with seniority..

 

[spinproof]

ALPA has looked at it repeatedly, there are simply no viable alternatives.

Really! You seem to hold yourself out as an expert in all things ALPO. All this knowledge coming from person that works at a non-alpo carrier?

Makes one wonder if NPA sanctions your activities? Better hope you don't have to file a grievence..you may find out!

 

[ultrarunner]

You didn't even read what I wrote. I didn't say that they had to give the Easties date of hire. Just a fence to protect their career expectations.

Wino, I think the point was the East had no career expectations. Liquidation was imminent in all likelihood.

 

[Soulfly]

Well...now it would appear y'all have no collective bargaining agreement with your employer, as the previous one was with ALPA....door's wide open for whatever the company wants to do with seniority..

And you are 100% wrong.

USAPA inherits all previous agreements, contracts, LOA's, etc, etc.

And BTW the company officially accepted the Nicolau decision. In writing, and a judge will never touch it.

You should get your facts straight before you post.

 

[BeCareful!]

You should get your facts straight before you post.

That might be the funniest thing written here!

"Facts" on an Internet forum...Ha! Good one

Like everything else you said was "fact." Right. Do you play a lawyer on T.V., too?