Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

[General Lee]

What a turd.

You know very well, not that you would bother being intellectually honest, that some stay for other reasons. Some for QOL. Some for family reasons. Some tried and failed, but most are of more character than you will ever be.

I am sure your group has it's own share of DUI, nuts, and plain tools, present company included. To deny this is to show your lack of integrity.

As to the BK being the reasons for all the small jet growth, well that is just as dishonest. I don't know where you work, nor do I care. But every mainline carrier, save SWA, gave up scope for money.

In every bankruptcy case, the judges put you under the gun. They took away your ability to strike, but you got to negotiate for what you got. You chose your poison and scope was not it.

But the aircraft that started this all was well before BK courts. Well before 9/11.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2000/05/01/65188/coming-of-age.html

Let's not try to deny history and point fingers at those who did nothing to start this. Point fingers instead at those who sold out the profession because of greed, arrogance, and shortsightedness.

Now that this falsehood has been put to rest, if you want to scope the RJ, you might want to open your checkbook.

I propose to put your ego aside and work with the regional, oh wait that's right we are a Major thank you, MECs so that it won't cost as much to re-scope the RJ. You obviously don't need to buy them from us, you will have to buy it at the table, but we can help accelerate this and save some of your negotiating chips for other things.

We at ASA have done a good job of supporting the profession, keeping the floor under you as high as we could get it.

United we stand, divided we fall. You should think about it, honestly.

Some stay for QOL? Really? You mean the top 2 guys? Great. I never said all the RJ growth was due to BKs, but the last couple were, the raising the limit from 70 to 76, and adding more 70 seaters. It was a recipe for disaster, which actually accelerated a BK. High fuel prices and the great deals Regionals got from a wounded legacy (where the legacies paid for all fuel bills, along with a guaranteed profit for the regional), created monster airlines. And, now that is about to change. SkyWest for example now has to throw it's RJs out there at their own expense and hope it works, with no guarantees (to feed Airtran in MKE for example), which is the way it should be ANYWAY. No more special favors for FEED.

As far as ASA goes, they have been our "friend" since 9-11, and I have stated that more than once in the past. But, RJs have not helped this profession at all, and have only brought down wages and good paying jobs. That needs to stop.

As far as bringing out our pocketbooks, how's that again? It will be OUR contract negotiations that will occur in 2012, and the economy and other factors will lead to a large RESTORATION of pay, not a pay "raise." We already had high pay, and that was NOT the reason for the BK. Anything CAL and UAL do will be copied by the other legacies, and better financials and an upswing in this industry means Regionals may take a hit after upcoming negotiations. Remember, the legacy controls the feed, and more than once a legacy has had to pay up to break a contract with a particular feed. That is just the way it goes. We all will be hoping and cheering for CAL/UAL MECs and know they will stay strong, especially since they pubically made this demand ahead of the actual negotiations, which the company wants DONE by year's end. Sounds like leverage to me if those management guys want their bonuses by XMAS.

And, more mainline jobs could result because of all this, and that means some of you can escape your regionals for a better life---which really is a better QOL. That is what you should strive for, not being the top of a regional. It's great ASA kept the bar up as high as you could etc, but now is the time you need to also understand that a lot of people were hurt by the rise of the RJ, and many were furloughed to allow your own people to thrive. It's time to bring them back, and then we can all figure this out to try to make this industry better for all of us. And, the real "turd" is the 50 seat RJ climbing slowly ahead of us through 20,000 ft. Less than 500 FPM? Really? Now that is a turd and you know it.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[buscap]

Gosh, I hope you are named after the orange car as opposed to a good soldier who was blinded by loyalty.

 

[sweptback]

General,

I'm not going to get into it with you, but I will say this.

ASA pilots were happily flying turboprops until your pilot group gave them 50-seat jets to fly.

Then, ASA pilots were happily flying 50-seat jets until you gave them 70-seat jets to fly.

Then, ASA pilots were happily flying 70-seat jets until you gave them 76-seat jets... you see the pattern here?

If you want to stop us from flying your passengers, then take back the scope. That's fine with most of us, since all but about the top 30% or so want to move on to greener pastures. But don't blame us for the situation you find yourself in, as your pilot group created it, and we just do as we're told.

That is all.

 

[General Lee]

General,

I'm not going to get into it with you, but I will say this.

ASA pilots were happily flying turboprops until your pilot group gave them 50-seat jets to fly.

Then, ASA pilots were happily flying 50-seat jets until you gave them 70-seat jets to fly.

Then, ASA pilots were happily flying 70-seat jets until you gave them 76-seat jets... you see the pattern here?

If you want to stop us from flying your passengers, then take back the scope. That's fine with most of us, since all but about the top 30% or so want to move on to greener pastures. But don't blame us for the situation you find yourself in, as your pilot group created it, and we just do as we're told.

That is all.

Just remember that some of that was FORCED. We never wanted a huge blast of extra 70 seaters, or 76 seaters that were handed to you from the BK judge. A lot of it does need to go back to mainline. It is great that the UAL/CAL MECs finally have some leverage and the cajones to go for it. Hopefully it will set a good example for the rest of us to follow. But, this idea has been in the mind of management too---after the Colgan crash and resulting examination of training procedures at some regionals etc.. Add to that the new hiring requirements by the FAA, and new fatigue rules that will be added within the next year. After all of that, it is no wonder that legacy managements may be looking at their own changes (as stated to a new hire class at DL a couple weeks ago). Heck, they own some of the planes (CR9s) already.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Russ]

GL
I see a lot of posturing by yourself and by other people who have no say as well. When is this revolution scheduled for? It always seems to be some far flung date in the future. So far all I see is the market and management making driving the changes. Yeah, 50 seat aircraft are being parked, but SkyWest has never been busier. When is this sleeping lion of labor going to awaken? The UA/CO merger has many talking about reclaiming flying but I would suggest its a placebo. Makes you feel good, but doesn't do anything for you. I heard the same talk after the NW/Dal merger yet we had as much DAL flying as we could handle. I look forward to ALPA trying to exert itself, last time it did I believe you got unlimited Jsauthirization. Good Luck.

 

[airjackson]

Excuse me while I choke just a bit on the irony of ex-regional and current mainline pilots cheering the (soon to be) end of the regional airlines.

Good luck reclaiming the flying. In my opinion, the best case would be to simply stop the bleeding of larger and larger aircraft being flown by the regionals. Where was the moral outrage when the mainlines were hiring and growing? Anyone? It seems they were too happy to give away the farm (scope) as long as things were stable with the mainline. Sure, BK didn't help but the seeds were sown long before then.

There are plenty of places to point fingers. How hypocritical of a pilot who came up through the regionals, who owes his very career to that experience, to chest-thump about how "evil" that same regional is. Get a freakin grip, or at least shut the F-up and let others with a modicum of integrity make the argument.

 

[General Lee]

GL
I see a lot of posturing by yourself and by other people who have no say as well. When is this revolution scheduled for? It always seems to be some far flung date in the future. So far all I see is the market and management making driving the changes. Yeah, 50 seat aircraft are being parked, but SkyWest has never been busier. When is this sleeping lion of labor going to awaken? The UA/CO merger has many talking about reclaiming flying but I would suggest its a placebo. Makes you feel good, but doesn't do anything for you. I heard the same talk after the NW/Dal merger yet we had as much DAL flying as we could handle. I look forward to ALPA trying to exert itself, last time it did I believe you got unlimited Jsauthirization. Good Luck.

Sorry Russ, it just can't all be done in one day. But, there can be "drop dead" dates on contracts, or those contracts could be broken by the legacy (might be expensive though). When it comes down to it, the management and Wall Street want this merger (UAL/CAL) done, and done smoothly. Lots of bonuses are riding on it on the management side and by the leaders of the hedge funds that are wanting this. Have you seen the market cap of Delta vs United and CAL put together? DAL is twice as large, which made Wall Street look at this and say "Let's get CAL and UAL together for our own big payday." If they want this to be a non USAir Chaos merger, then they will capitulate, and then get their own bonuses and make the MRS. happy. It is called leverage, and the unions put this all out publically as a must have. When DL/NWA were doing the joint contract, oil was at $130 a barrel, IOW terrible timing. Gas at the pump was over $4 a gallon. Do you remember that? Nobody knew what was going to happen. DL/NWA pilots still got a 17% raise (over 4 years) and lots of stock even during that stressful time. How are things going now? Profits are back, gas is lower (down $3 a barrel today alone), and Wall St wants a clean merger. They are the ones who put the "deadline" for the end of the year. They all want this done. The Colgan crash also made people look at this possibility, and having no say over a Regional's training program and also the possibility of new liability laws in the future (brought up just after the recent law was already drafted) mean the Legacies have to look at this. I don't know if this will happen, but it is a strong possibility. Stronger now than ever.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

lots of napoleons around here...

 

[Captain X]

The Continental/UAL negotiators are just posturing and trying to create some leverage. They know they can't bet the Jeannie back in the bottle. Scope is for sale.

Is Jeannie the name of that man in your avatar?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The guy has a screw loose. I've diagnosed this turd aka Urinal Lee with Bipolar Disorder with comordbid Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Not a great combination and usually stems from childhood trauma (aka daddy touched his wee wee).

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Scope is number 1....get it NUMBER F'ing ONE!!! WE WILL GET BACK OUR FLYING. PERIOD. The days of the 50 are over. The days of farming out flying are over! About damn time.

 

[glasspilot]

That's a nice thought yuppuguppy. Are you willing to fly it for the rates? Back in the day when the 50 seat RJs were just a dream for the regionals the majors turned their nose up at them due to two things;

1: they put the word "regional" right there in the name. It was easy for management to say, "you don't want to fly those...they're Regional Jets!!!"

2: the contracts at the majors at the time said point blank that no FO could ever make more than the most junior Captain. Well that was a deal breaker right there as an RJ doesn't support left seat pay above 747 senior Fo. Sooo, ya gonna let Captains make less than FOs?

I'm currious, really.

 

[General Lee]

That's a nice thought yuppuguppy. Are you willing to fly it for the rates? Back in the day when the 50 seat RJs were just a dream for the regionals the majors turned their nose up at them due to two things;

1: they put the word "regional" right there in the name. It was easy for management to say, "you don't want to fly those...they're Regional Jets!!!"

2: the contracts at the majors at the time said point blank that no FO could ever make more than the most junior Captain. Well that was a deal breaker right there as an RJ doesn't support left seat pay above 747 senior Fo. Sooo, ya gonna let Captains make less than FOs?

I'm currious, really.

Since there is currently stagnation at the regionals thanks to lack of hiring at the Legacies and some LCCs, all you have to do is see what the CURRENT average rate is among senior Regional pilots flying these planes. It's not $40 an hour for Captains these days, probably closer to $60 or $70 an hour for 50 seaters (longevity at regionals has increased), and maybe $85-90 an hour for E175s and CR9s. I think most Major Airline pilots would take those CURRENT rates as a base for a new contract. Also, many airlines allow their furloughed pilots to come back at the accrued year of longevity for the entire furlough---for example if a UAL guy went out at year two---and came back 4 years later, he would be at year 6 for pay. I know UAL doesn't do that right now, but DL does, and CAL/UAL will demand it no doubt. So again, the pay rates wouldn't be that low. And with retirements scheduled at hundreds per year at UAL and CAL coming up (remember, both of those airlines have had very little retirements so far, and have tons of old guys), people will move up the ladder quickly regardless.

So, glasspilot, I think they might have a plan, and it includes retirments of RJs, retirements of RJ contracts with UAL/CAL, and retirements of old pilots. I also think I know what yuppy's answer would be....(same as mine)



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[glasspilot]

So you're saying the whole plan behind relaxing the scope to allow the regionals jets was to move the average pay from $50 to $80?

And now that it's there, coupled with massive retirements, it's time to shut the regionals down and take back that flying?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Regionals aint gwoin' no-wheres.... Mainline Managemints don't want mo mainline pylits... they need Regionals jus in case they need to loadshed some expense....

 

[contrail67]

In the end, 50 seaters will not even be here...70's will be the smallest RJ anyway.

Basically, when you are hired..you start on the 70 seater and move your way up.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Cute plan. If a staple is involved, then great, but I don't think you'll see any of these airplanes goin over to mainline soon. If anything it'll be some new C series or something on the order of 100+ seats. Anything less than that will remain at the regionals unless you're planning on a seniority list staple.

 

[WayBack]

They're about 18yrs too late.
But let them have them, you think management is going to let those mainline guys fly them for more than what the regional guys are? Oh wait, ALPA will get you the pay and respect you need.
Now just line up behind the Aloha, ATA, Midwest.....and all the other defuct ALPA pilot groups.

 

[Flyerdan]

In the end, 50 seaters will not even be here...70's will be the smallest RJ anyway.

Basically, when you are hired..you start on the 70 seater and move your way up.

That doesn't make sense to me. What do you do with the routes that won't support a 70 seat airplane. There are many routes that are currently flown by a 30 seater because they won't support a 50 seat airplane.

Also, I think it is more likely that regionals are getting ready to morph into code share partners instead of just being vendors that provide feed. Is that covered in scope? Republic is the perfect example right now. As a code share partner they could put an E145 to an E175, to possibly an Airbus on a route. That may be the future.

 

[WayBack]

Scope is number 1....get it NUMBER F'ing ONE!!! WE WILL GET BACK OUR FLYING. PERIOD. The days of the 50 are over. The days of farming out flying are over! About damn time.

In the world of reality, no you wont. It will only get worse.

In your little pipe dream, sure ok. But you will be getting paid regional wages, HAHAHAH!