Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

[LearLove]

On the first part; NOT TRUE. On Sept. 10th 2001 I fully expected to be a wide body Captain by retirement. I have not set up shop here, the shop was built out of concrete around me by the legacy pilots. So now there is no future for me here, because I only fly for the tallest midget, or at a "regional free" legacy, because of their crappy pay and retirement.

On the second part, I would not want to be senior to a legacy pilot. I just don't want to lose what I now have. Everyone I know, outside of aviation whom call themselves professionals, NEVER take pay, benefit, or QOL hits to work for a different employer. Why the F is it expected of us? How can we realistically call ourselves professionals? Not like I have a say in this matter, but I would be onboard with a plan for a "regional free" airline only through a merger with fences.

Why should you be any different than the rest of us? I (like 99.99% of all commuter/regional pilots who left for a major) took a pay cut and gave up my regional/commuter years to go to a major. Why should you keep yours?

Even though I "flowed" from my wholly owned commuter to the mainline/major I gave up everything, years of service, started at year one pay and took a seat behind all the mainline guys that were there before me. The only thing I got to keep from my original commuter DOH was my original DOH for nonrev privileges.

 

[ASA Captain]

There is one point missing. Mgmnt ain't gonna let this fly. You know why? Longevity.

It has taken me over ten years at a regional to get even in the neighborhood of 100k. If I go to mainline I get a nice little financial reset. I start over in longevity so by the time I upgrade, I am only a 8-10 year pay captain. If this went through, by the time I will upgrade on the same equipment I will be a 15-18 year captain with corresponding pay.

There is a big reason we exist. Money. Y'all at CAL/UAL will have to buy this with your hard earned money.

I think is a noble cause. A few years late, and under the guns of bankruptcy court forced upon you, but late none the less.

How much are you willing to spend to buy those jobs back? I have a sneaking suspicion that the 30% pay hit y'all took is more of a real issue. The ire of the fire might be scope because of all those pesky little RJs taxiing past, but when it comes to negotiating for pay, there will be far more dollar signs in your eyes than that 30k job that you don't need anyways.

Good luck.

 

[AWACoff]

There is one point missing. Mgmnt ain't gonna let this fly. You know why? Longevity.

It has taken me over ten years at a regional to get even in the neighborhood of 100k. If I go to mainline I get a nice little financial reset. I start over in longevity so by the time I upgrade, I am only a 8-10 year pay captain. If this went through, by the time I will upgrade on the same equipment I will be a 15-18 year captain with corresponding pay.

There is a big reason we exist. Money. Y'all at CAL/UAL will have to buy this with your hard earned money.

I think is a noble cause. A few years late, and under the guns of bankruptcy court forced upon you, but late none the less.

How much are you willing to spend to buy those jobs back? I have a sneaking suspicion that the 30% pay hit y'all took is more of a real issue. The ire of the fire might be scope because of all those pesky little RJs taxiing past, but when it comes to negotiating for pay, there will be far more dollar signs in your eyes than that 30k job that you don't need anyways.

Good luck.

We ALL took a financial hit and longevity hit when we left the regional/military world for our major airline. You are out of touch with reality if you think you will be handed a golden ticket which allows you to retain your current QOL AND be integrated with a major. We will give nothing, nada, zero dollars to "buy" back OUR flying. You fly for a subcontractor. You don't have any rights, just a feeling of entitlement.

 

[ASA Captain]

RTFP.

What is your problem? I don't want any of your money, seniority, or job. I am talking about the financial benefit the company gets when there are two levels.

You are so wrapped up in your own paranoid worries that you can't admit the facts. You will have to buy this. Not from me. You will have to buy it at the negotiations table. Every item is bought. Even if you agreed to fly for the same pay as the regional pilots, you will have to buy it because of the longevity issue.

Relax. I actually support the cause. I have nothing to worry about. If there are more jobs at mainline I benefit. Save your outrage for the company.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

And just what rate do you think you will get at mainline??? Probably less, and WAY LESS when they bring you in at first year pay!

You are such a whiner, complainer and a wimp. Suck it up and deal with it. I've been dealing with it this entire decade. Time to make right. Yes 2 wrongs will make it RIGHT...finally.

 

[damnflyboy]

Legacy managements will be playing a big game of chicken. The first one to budge will have a tremendous disadvantage with competition. Watch those negotiations draaaaaaag.

 

[jumppilot]

The funny thing is that once 2012 rolls around this will all seem like a bad dream. Anyone who wants to move on will be able to - retirement numbers don't lie.

I jumpseated on the regional I came from and the 30 year old captain said he was going to make this a career. Easy to say, given the recent climate of the airlines.

However, I told him once the FOs and CAs he's flown with are at a major telling him how much better it is he'll be the first to ask them to walk his stuff in. He didn't agree but I remember how it was in 2006 when I was a regional CA.

 

[pipejockey]

The only way this would be viable from my point of view would be an integration of the seniority lists. There is no way on God's green earth that is going to happen, because you will be hard-pressed to see any mainline guy willingly being junior to a regional pilot on one list.

And therein lies the problem! It always seems to be the mainline pilots that create the problems! They initially created the problem by refusing to do what it would have taken to get RJ's on property 15 years ago. Then compounded the problem by giving up more scope with each contract, culminating in the literal clearing house they had with the bankruptcy contracts from 2002-2005. Now they will balk at the thought of a 5 year FO being junior to a 15 year CA from a regional. Why??? After all, when an airline buys another or merges with another like AA/TWA and US/AWA, there is some sort of integration of pilots. But to even hint at that with regional pilots and everybody gasps!!

The only difference I can see, is the size of the aircraft the 2 pilot groups fly. So because the regional pilots fly the aircraft with less than 100 seats, they are not worthy of being integrated into a seniority list? Gimme a break! Where do these mainline folks think that new hires come from? REGIONALS!!! As a matter of fact, many of these guys balking actually came from regionals themselves, imagine that? Does that mean that the 5 year major fo might have ended up better off staying with the regional he came from and integrated as a 15 year regional guy? Perhaps. But thats just the way the cookie crumbles when you are trying to make groundbreaking changes to the industry, like bringing regional jet flying into the mainline fold. Some people will benefit a bit more than they are entitled to, and others might take a bit of a hit. But in the long run, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

Basically, to make this work, the mainline guys are going to need to put their pride aside, (kinda like they did when they gave up scope like it were water and created this mess in the first place) and allow current regional pilots a preferential HIRING, not interview. And the senior regional guys with 10, 15, even 20 plus years cannot in any way shape or form, be demanding an integration based on those years of service. It's all about give and take guys! Don't screw the majority for the personal gain of the few. That's what has gotten us this mess in the first place. I really do believe that the onus does fall on the mainline guys first and foremost, at least the ones that have at least 10-15 years there. After all, they created this mess in the first place by not having a bit of foresight on what management could do with these RJ's.
Perhaps they did, and just didn't care! Like the old saying goes... I've got mine, now to he*l with everybody else!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As I said... (maybe on a different thread...) everyone (represented that is...) gets a seat at the table... we sit down and work it out... won't be pretty....

 

[RT8VA]

The CEO of Skywest Holdings said in aviation international magazine that his number one priority for the RAA is to get scope relief to fly Larger planes for main line carriers. Brian Bedford said he expected to get scope relief from United and Continental and fly bigger a/c when he ordered the C series. (pre merger) Delta's current in flight magazine already lists mainline flying as that flying with a seating capacity of 100 seats or more.

Continental contract currently doesn't allow any jet a/c over 50 seats to be flown so to a large degree this isn't just taking back but maintaining our current scope. The target these guys want is not the airplanes you currently fly it is larger and larger a/c that are only called rjs because they are made by Embraer and Bombardier. I was a regional pilot for a long time you can take all the trip and duty rigs at ASA and every where else and it doesn't make a difference, our 5 year FO's on our crappy outdated concessionary contract at CAL make more money then your senior captains duty rigs or not. We aren't trying to steal your jobs we are trying to make this a career again. The pilots and ALPA and every one else always get slammed for giving up scope and as soon as some one tries to tighten it down they are getting slammed for that. Not sure how you win that one.

I said it on another thread and I am going to post it here too, we all have a stake in this whether you are a student pilot who wants to work at an airline or a senior captain. This is a very comparable time to when the RJ's first came on line, no one has seen this proposal only a summary of what it has in it. The implication is that over years when a/c are replaced with larger ones those ac will be introduced at the major instead of out sourced to a vendor. If the last couple of years haven't proved there is no stable ground at the regionals I am not sure what will. IE ASA bought by Skywest operated separately, comair going to JFK now on the move again to DTW. United and US air swapping regional partners, Mesaba sold to Pinnacle, Compass sold to Trans States. Well see where the next 6 months takes us but this is not just about the CAL pilots.

Sorry so long.

 

[Chairman]

Because there will not be a merger. Mainline already owns many of the airplane they have just contracted them out to be flown. There are plenty of RJ's around if they choose to bring them on property and fly them. They will not need to acquire anyone!

 

[johnsonrod]

That's all fine...take back all the flying and the planes but, bring the crews with them in their current positions. Put up fences to protect QOL issues on both sides.

If mainline mgt can make $$$ with current regional pay rates and work rules, they can make $$$ with those planes and crews added onto the"bottom" of their list. Even with the current crews at their current rates...

It's a win-win-win. No more mainline furloughs, no regional crews furloughed, and mgt continues to make $$$$ ( maybe even more if they shed the added cost of regional mgt and operating expenses )....oh yeah, eventually, all the flying will return to is rightful place......mainline.....and oh yeah ( take 2 ), add those 7000 regional pilots to the 10000 or so mainline pilots ( now pulling in the SAME direction TOGETHER! ) and I'd say we'd have some pretty good opportunities to change the future of this career positively for the first time in quite a while...

Or, we can all keep acting the punky kids in the sand box grabbing at every toy in site screaming mine, mine, mine

I'm just sayin'

What about the current 2000 or so United furloughed pilots, and 147 furloughed CAL pilots? I have a feeling they would go in front of you. If you don't like it, too bad. I hope the Delta pilots go for the same thing during their next round of negotiations whenever that is. If the CAL/UAL guys get anything out of this, the others will follow.

 

[johnsonrod]

The CEO of Skywest Holdings said in aviation international magazine that his number one priority for the RAA is to get scope relief to fly Larger planes for main line carriers. Brian Bedford said he expected to get scope relief from United and Continental and fly bigger a/c when he ordered the C series. (pre merger) Delta's current in flight magazine already lists mainline flying as that flying with a seating capacity of 100 seats or more.

Continental contract currently doesn't allow any jet a/c over 50 seats to be flown so to a large degree this isn't just taking back but maintaining our current scope. The target these guys want is not the airplanes you currently fly it is larger and larger a/c that are only called rjs because they are made by Embraer and Bombardier. I was a regional pilot for a long time you can take all the trip and duty rigs at ASA and every where else and it doesn't make a difference, our 5 year FO's on our crappy outdated concessionary contract at CAL make more money then your senior captains duty rigs or not. We aren't trying to steal your jobs we are trying to make this a career again. The pilots and ALPA and every one else always get slammed for giving up scope and as soon as some one tries to tighten it down they are getting slammed for that. Not sure how you win that one.

I said it on another thread and I am going to post it here too, we all have a stake in this whether you are a student pilot who wants to work at an airline or a senior captain. This is a very comparable time to when the RJ's first came on line, no one has seen this proposal only a summary of what it has in it. The implication is that over years when a/c are replaced with larger ones those ac will be introduced at the major instead of out sourced to a vendor. If the last couple of years haven't proved there is no stable ground at the regionals I am not sure what will. IE ASA bought by Skywest operated separately, comair going to JFK now on the move again to DTW. United and US air swapping regional partners, Mesaba sold to Pinnacle, Compass sold to Trans States. Well see where the next 6 months takes us but this is not just about the CAL pilots.

Sorry so long.

Finally, this is the first step at taking back what the mainline pilots lost. I hope the other majors follow. What will that mean for the rest of us? Hopefully better jobs with advancement and better security. I don't want to fly at the regionals anymore. I want better.

 

[johnsonrod]

I applaud your optimism and outlook for the future, I don't share your view. Not because I don't like it. It's because of the reality in which we fit into the structure of an airline as employees. We are simply put a cost to be controlled , and management isn't going to even begin to consider this unless there is a true benefit from a cost structure perspective. The only way this would be viable from my point of view would be an integration of the seniority lists. There is no way on God's green earth that is going to happen, because you will be hard-pressed to see any mainline guy willingly being junior to a regional pilot on one list.
I am willing to give it some time and see what this thing looks like when they roll-out a plan. However, my level of trust is at rock-bottom given the shady way I have seen airlines negotiate.

I have a feeling the mainline guys will ask for pay rates that are equal to what CURRENT regional pilots are making flying those 70 and 76 seat planes. Many of us at the regionals have been flying here a long time, and are starting to top out at $70 or 80K, and at THOSE rates (that equal that much per year) the mainline guys will accept flying those planes. It won't be $30 a hour for a Capt seat or an FO seat. They will look at what CURRENT RJ Captains and FOs are making, and those rates are higher thanks to years of stagnation. How much would a current SKyWest Captain make if they just now got E190s? They would be very senior pilots there, and they would get close to $100 an hour I think. Well, that is what the mainline guys will start at. If they start flying an E175, then it may be closer to $85 an hour.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The soft cost of ML pilots is higher... Medical, B/C plan, etc... it is not that easy... but a start!