Looks like CAL/UAL MECs want the RJs

[BrickTop]

The flying will go to whomever pays the most DUES!

Throw your flashy cliche' to rest. Its nothing more than a quirky ramble that makes those fortunate enough to have been blessed with "Good timing" to praise themselves for their positions. This industry "DOES NOT" reward hard work but rather "timing". I and many have paid years of "dues" and are long overdue for reward.

 

[ohplease!]

What about the current 2000 or so United furloughed pilots, and 147 furloughed CAL pilots? I have a feeling they would go in front of you. If you don't like it, too bad. I hope the Delta pilots go for the same thing during their next round of negotiations whenever that is. If the CAL/UAL guys get anything out of this, the others will follow.

Yo! Dipsh!t... Climb of the high horse ( that friggin' nag is really tired ) and actually READ. I didn't say put anyone in front of anyone. Quite the contrary.

Here, I'll put it in caps so you can see it... STAPLE THE REGIONALS TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. THEN, PUT UP FENCES TO KEEP SOME YAHOO RJ PILOT FROM THINKING HE SHOULD BE A 777 captain AT 25 YEAR PAY AAANNNNDDDD TO KEEP SOME MAINLINE ASS FROM TRYING TO TAKE MY QOL AND STICK ME WITH SOME SH!tty RES NEWARK NONSENSE.

Of course the furloughs should go back in front! Idiot. Make the fence for 20 years.... I don't care.

THEN add the new hires on the bottom of the WHOLE thing.

Nobody loses seats ( either way) or QOL and it all ends up back under one roof with double the voting power and no where to whipsaw.

I'm sure its not THAT easy but, it can't be that hard...

 

[Chairman]

Yo! Dipsh!t... Climb of the high horse ( that friggin' nag is really tired ) and actually READ. I didn't say put anyone in front of anyone. Quite the contrary.

Here, I'll put it in caps so you can see it... STAPLE THE REGIONALS TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. THEN, PUT UP FENCES TO KEEP SOME YAHOO RJ PILOT FROM THINKING HE SHOULD BE A 777 captain AT 25 YEAR PAY AAANNNNDDDD TO KEEP SOME MAINLINE ASS FROM TRYING TO TAKE MY QOL AND STICK ME WITH SOME SH!tty RES NEWARK NONSENSE.

Of course the furloughs should go back in front! Idiot. Make the fence for 20 years.... I don't care.

THEN add the new hires on the bottom of the WHOLE thing.

Nobody loses seats ( either way) or QOL and it all ends up back under one roof with double the voting power and no where to whipsaw.

I'm sure its not THAT easy but, it can't be that hard...

I don't remember the same consideration when all the 727 737 DC 10 were being parked and the 700's and E170's were showing up in droves. I lost my seat pay and was offered $19 if I wanted to continue flying!

 

[AWACoff]

RTFP.

What is your problem? I don't want any of your money, seniority, or job. I am talking about the financial benefit the company gets when there are two levels.

You are so wrapped up in your own paranoid worries that you can't admit the facts. You will have to buy this. Not from me. You will have to buy it at the negotiations table. Every item is bought. Even if you agreed to fly for the same pay as the regional pilots, you will have to buy it because of the longevity issue.

Relax. I actually support the cause. I have nothing to worry about. If there are more jobs at mainline I benefit. Save your outrage for the company.

Just watch...the days of "buying" are over. The days of management "giving" have begun. If they don't give enough, they don't get their generational wealth payday.

 

[ohplease!]

I don't remember the same consideration when all the 727 737 DC 10 were being parked and the 700's and E170's were showing up in droves. I lost my seat pay and was offered $19 if I wanted to continue flying!

That would be an issue for you to take up with your company , your union and those folks senior to you who were apparently unwilling to make enough concessions to keep you working. At least you were offered something.

 

[ASA Captain]

And, if you remember, we at ASA obtained preferential interviews and no seniority resignations for furloughees.

Small step, but pretty important to those who needed work. You could thank your senior brothers for not securing better scope so you could have flown the RJ for mainline or at least did flowback if you had offered flowthrough.

 

[nimtz]

Can you guys step back and look at what were doing here.

- Current Bottom line: most regional flying is 50 seaters
- Fact: 50 seaters are driving the bean counters nuts due to limited
economics
- Fact: 70 seater economics only marginally better
- Bean counter wet dream: bigger 'RJ' to replace every small 73 and
A319

That is what is we want stopped. No rational person expects us to get the new UAL to park all of it's regional feed tomorrow. What we are doing is letting the economics of the airframes take care of that problem over the years. So when those contracts run out years from now, most likely Uncle Jerry will have to send them to Cambodia.

Management wants us to get in line with previous practice of not flying anything made by Bombardier or Embrarer. Those days are done. Senior down to junior pilots have been f*cked by that line of thinking too many times. CO/UA pilots will do what we have to do to ensure that the last mad decade of regional growth will NEVER happen again.

As for the regionals, it's already playing out. Margins are tightening and costs are trending up. What's the solution, mergers. That will put a bandaid on the problem for maybe five-seven years. Nevertheless, Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford will not have the golden growth ticket of 70+ seats that they need to grow in the long term. After all regionals don't do well if they are stagnant, that's why your bosses are always liking boots trying to get more 'upgrades'.

Keep your CRJ '9' for the years ahead, but don't expect to be there in 10 years. Sh!t I never thought that about the EMB-135's I flew left seat in. And based on that, I don't shed a tear for you guys who are scolding us for wanting to drag this profession out of the gutter...

 

[buscap]

Can you guys step back and look at what were doing here.

- Current Bottom line: most regional flying is 50 seaters
- Fact: 50 seaters are driving the bean counters nuts due to limited
economics
- Fact: 70 seater economics only marginally better
- Bean counter wet dream: bigger 'RJ' to replace every small 73 and
A319

That is what is we want stopped. No rational person expects us to get the new UAL to park all of it's regional feed tomorrow. What we are doing is letting the economics of the airframes take care of that problem over the years. So when those contracts run out years from now, most likely Uncle Jerry will have to send them to Cambodia.

Management wants us to get in line with previous practice of not flying anything made by Bombardier or Embrarer. Those days are done. Senior down to junior pilots have been f*cked by that line of thinking too many times. CO/UA pilots will do what we have to do to ensure that the last mad decade of regional growth will NEVER happen again.

As for the regionals, it's already playing out. Margins are tightening and costs are trending up. What's the solution, mergers. That will put a bandaid on the problem for maybe five-seven years. Nevertheless, Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford will not have the golden growth ticket of 70+ seats that they need to grow in the long term. After all regionals don't do well if they are stagnant, that's why your bosses are always liking boots trying to get more 'upgrades'.

Keep your CRJ '9' for the years ahead, but don't expect to be there in 10 years. Sh!t I never thought that about the EMB-135's I flew left seat in. And based on that, I don't shed a tear for you guys who are scolding us for wanting to drag this profession out of the gutter...

I have heard this argument so many times. It is a shortsighted view of the problem and solution. Trying to protect your flying based on aircraft size (seats) or type (jet or prop), is how we got into this trouble.

As long as you allow a single Cessna Caravan to codeshare a ticket under your brand, you will perpetuate the problem. That little Cessna which you don't want on your seniority list because you are just too darn good a pilot to fly it, will eventually grow like a cancer. You will be right back where you are now.

In the military we had a term called "mission creep". Call this one "scope creep".

The only real solution is to take all the planes and all the pilots in house in one big suck. Staple, b-list seniority, fences, whatever. In house with one MEC. Maybe separate LECs for the regional guys? Get creative. Make it happen.

Wait for the contracts to expire and you will only give management an opportunity to find a way to circumnavigate the scope language and shop the flying for an even cheaper rate. Set a schedule to get all the planes and pilots in house on a given date and bam.

Regional type flying is obviously profitable and needed, and should be done in house. I know you guys hate the idea of your buddies starting out at mainline on a prop or little jet and even worse is the thought of sharing a union with us scum, but we both know it is the best solution-all or nothing.

Sure, you're going to inherit some weirdos who would've never made it past the interview, but that's what training departments are for. But weirdos aren't such a bid deal anyway. We both know you already have some on property. And let's not forget about the card carrying scabs.

 

[nimtz]

I don't give a rat's @ss what equipment a newhire starts on. If some former military guy has a bug up his @ss that his buddy is too good to fly a C Series jet then too freaking bad. That's fairly unlikely and in the end not really a problem.

Yes in a dream world we all have one happy list and a 22 year old starts flying 1900's and happily dances down the yellow brick road. It didn't happen in the past and it won't happen in the future. Besides could someone explain how in an age of 'fee for departure' and 'risk arbitrage' it would be possible for a mainline pilot group is to integrate a feeder like Skywest or god forbid Republic?


I understand your point about loopholes, but that is for people far smarter then me. The bottom line is the 50 seaters have peaked and will make great beer cans in 10 years time. Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford know this and that's why they pray to the almighty at night that CAL/UAL is dumb enough to completely cave on scope. The regionals will always survive in some capacity, but the days of providing 50%+ domestic lift will end. Some of you obviously have a big problem with that...

 

[buscap]

I don't give a rat's @ss what equipment a newhire starts on. If some former military guy has a bug up his @ss that his buddy is too good to fly a C Series jet then too freaking bad. That's fairly unlikely and in the end not really a problem.

Yes in a dream world we all have one happy list and a 22 year old starts flying 1900's and happily dances down the yellow brick road. It didn't happen in the past and it won't happen in the future. Besides could someone explain how in an age of 'fee for departure' and 'risk arbitrage' it would be possible for a mainline pilot group is to integrate a feeder like Skywest or god forbid Republic?


I understand your point about loopholes, but that is for people far smarter then me. The bottom line is the 50 seaters have peaked and will make great beer cans in 10 years time. Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford know this and that's why they pray to the almighty at night that CAL/UAL is dumb enough to completely cave on scope. The regionals will always survive in some capacity, but the days of providing 50%+ domestic lift will end. Some of you obviously have a big problem with that...

Thinking small my friend. Thinking small. Your solution won't work.

 

[nimtz]

Thinking small my friend. Thinking small. Your solution won't work.

And the odds of yours happening are about as likely as The Mets playing .800 ball in September...

 

[General Lee]

Can you guys step back and look at what were doing here.

- Current Bottom line: most regional flying is 50 seaters
- Fact: 50 seaters are driving the bean counters nuts due to limited
economics
- Fact: 70 seater economics only marginally better
- Bean counter wet dream: bigger 'RJ' to replace every small 73 and
A319

That is what is we want stopped. No rational person expects us to get the new UAL to park all of it's regional feed tomorrow. What we are doing is letting the economics of the airframes take care of that problem over the years. So when those contracts run out years from now, most likely Uncle Jerry will have to send them to Cambodia.

Management wants us to get in line with previous practice of not flying anything made by Bombardier or Embrarer. Those days are done. Senior down to junior pilots have been f*cked by that line of thinking too many times. CO/UA pilots will do what we have to do to ensure that the last mad decade of regional growth will NEVER happen again.

As for the regionals, it's already playing out. Margins are tightening and costs are trending up. What's the solution, mergers. That will put a bandaid on the problem for maybe five-seven years. Nevertheless, Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford will not have the golden growth ticket of 70+ seats that they need to grow in the long term. After all regionals don't do well if they are stagnant, that's why your bosses are always liking boots trying to get more 'upgrades'.

Keep your CRJ '9' for the years ahead, but don't expect to be there in 10 years. Sh!t I never thought that about the EMB-135's I flew left seat in. And based on that, I don't shed a tear for you guys who are scolding us for wanting to drag this profession out of the gutter...

Very well stated. The Regional guys have watched larger planes being brought to them thanks to legacy bankruptcies, and all the while KNOWING this was wrong. Jerry from SkyWest and the Rev from Republic are counting on Scope dwindling so they can take on the next stage of larger RJs and possibly 100 seaters, but unfortunately for them the legacies are now in an upswing financially, which gives the unions more say and less BK judge intervention. It's time to remold scope boys and girls, and bring some of the 76 seaters over to the mainline side, and keep everything larger, including the 100 seater that will be coming eventually.

To all of those 76 seat Captains looking to extend their free ride to larger planes without the interview at a major to do so, welcome to the real world. (Joe Merchant and Ohplease!) It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the UAL/CAL pilots. If something does stick, it will then happen at the other legacies as well most likely. And someone said that this might have been mentioned already at a newhire class at DL---something about DL wanting to fly 76 seaters at mainline since they already own some of the planes.

Something good out of this could be eventually more jobs for regional guys to interview for at the majors, after the furloughed pilots are offered jobs back first of course! Get the popcorn ready, and again thanks to the CAL/UAL MECs for finally bringing this to the table. Stay strong guys!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ad Lib]

Can you guys step back and look at what were doing here.

- Current Bottom line: most regional flying is 50 seaters
- Fact: 50 seaters are driving the bean counters nuts due to limited
economics
- Fact: 70 seater economics only marginally better
- Bean counter wet dream: bigger 'RJ' to replace every small 73 and
A319

As for the regionals, it's already playing out. Margins are tightening and costs are trending up. What's the solution, mergers. That will put a bandaid on the problem for maybe five-seven years. Nevertheless, Uncle Jerry and Rev Bedford will not have the golden growth ticket of 70+ seats that they need to grow in the long term. After all regionals don't do well if they are stagnant, that's why your bosses are always liking boots trying to get more 'upgrades'.

Keep your CRJ '9' for the years ahead, but don't expect to be there in 10 years. Sh!t I never thought that about the EMB-135's I flew left seat in. And based on that, I don't shed a tear for you guys who are scolding us for wanting to drag this profession out of the gutter...

Most of what you write is correct, but the economics of the 70 to 90 seat RJ platforms are TONS better than the 50 seaters. For a start, the 70 seater carries nearly half again more revenue (40%) and is less operationally limited. The 76 seater (with First Class) ideally carries nearly twice the revenue at a similar operational cost of the 50 seater.

The difference puts the large RJ platform into the CASM which makes it a viable replacement for mainline equipment and that is what it has been employed to do.

You are correct the battle is moving to the C Series and a 100 seat scope limit. I believe the UAL/CO position is an opener, which hopes to move the battle front closer to their position than starting at 70 seats and conceding more outsourcing from there.

Given the number of furloughs at the mainline carrier, they have to focus on job protection provisions in this merger. The Delta pilots had the luxury of not having to do their merger with pilots involuntarily on the street.

 

[whymeworry?]

Who's going to fly the 600 RJ's? All new hires? Right, that will work! Why do all these mainline guys want the Regional guys to lose their jobs? I literally feed my family with the money I earn as a Regional Capt. I would lose my home and car as well as most of my belongings if my company disappeared and I had to apply as a first year RJ FO at a major (or possibly Capt if enough positions were available, etc. But at first year pay) How is this good for many people? You guys at the major are flying big airplanes for more money now, but you want a safety net at my expense!! Now, if lists were integrated and people kept their seats at the "new major" then that is different. Why wouldn't you guys like that?

First of all, we're getting rid of the B-scale. So the days of 1st yr pay at $30- $36,000/ yr are over. It will be closer to $55-60,000 starting once our contract is signed (though I admit that is still a B-scale wage), which means you could do $75-85,000 first year with o/t and rigs once new contract is in play.

Second, 1st yr pay is just that... 1st yr. It ramps up pretty quickly thereafter. Sure it's a hit to downgrade your lifestyle for that first year, but it's certainly doable and that first year goes by quick... so do the 2nd and 3rd. Thousands upon thousands of pilots have done it before you.

Too many RJ drivers focus in on that year-1 pay. Whereas you're looking at 20-25 years beyond that if you're in your late 30s to early 40s and still at a regional.

So you sell your car, rent out your house, scale back. It's only for a short period then you'll be making more money than an RJ Captain and working far less... and you know what? You pay will go up every year for the next 12 yrs in the worst-case scenario that you don't upgrade.

The problem I had with staying at a regional was that I had pretty much maxed out on pay. Sure it would go up a couple of bucks a year, but hardly enough to compete with the longer-term projection of a major career.

I took some HUGE (I mean frigging HUGE) hits to scale back and come to a major. But I have no regrets. It's simply a different industry altogether.

But don't bother telling any of this to Pocono Pilot. She has all the answers. Better follow her advice instead.

 

[ohplease!]

Very well stated. The Regional guys have watched larger planes being brought to them thanks to legacy bankruptcies, and all the while KNOWING this was wrong. Jerry from SkyWest and the Rev from Republic are counting on Scope dwindling so they can take on the next stage of larger RJs and possibly 100 seaters, but unfortunately for them the legacies are now in an upswing financially, which gives the unions more say and less BK judge intervention. It's time to remold scope boys and girls, and bring some of the 76 seaters over to the mainline side, and keep everything larger, including the 100 seater that will be coming eventually.

To all of those 76 seat Captains looking to extend their free ride to larger planes without the interview at a major to do so, welcome to the real world. (Joe Merchant and Ohplease!) It will be interesting to see how this pans out for the UAL/CAL pilots. If something does stick, it will then happen at the other legacies as well most likely. And someone said that this might have been mentioned already at a newhire class at DL---something about DL wanting to fly 76 seaters at mainline since they already own some of the planes.

Something good out of this could be eventually more jobs for regional guys to interview for at the majors, after the furloughed pilots are offered jobs back first of course! Get the popcorn ready, and again thanks to the CAL/UAL MECs for finally bringing this to the table. Stay strong guys!


Bye Bye--General Lee

don't get me wrong there general....let me make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR to you that the last thing on my bucket list is to end up flying with the likes of you. Although I realize there are 14000 or so at"delta", the chance of spending hours next to some of you is enough to send me into another career altogether.

Have no fear, I have other opportunities in hand as this industry/economy start back the other way... Can't speak for Joe or others.

That being said, you are dead wrong about your predictions...

I'm just sayin'