Latest ASA offer

[PCL_128]

semantics AGAIN! I don't care what you choose to call it....ASA made an offer/supposal/proposal/what if/who dun'it/whatever....

Actually, NO, it is not just symantics. "Supposal" and "proposal" mean two entirely different things in legal circles (including the NMB). The fact that you don't understand that is a perfect demonstration of why you need to trust your CNC and MEC instead of attacking them and making crazy demands of them based on emotion rather than reasoning.

please tell me you are smart enough/reasonable enough/have common sense enough to realize ....had our CNC agreed to the terms being presented as a "what if?" scenario, ASA would have called the NMB and asked for a meeting and they would have offered it "officially" on the record.

No, I don't believe that's what would have transpired. If the CNC had shown willingness to accept the "supposal," I believe the management negotiators would have pulled the supposal from the table and come back with something slightly less appealing. That's what makes a supposal different from a bonified proposal: you can't pull a proposal from the table under Section 6 negotiations after it's already been made. If you do, then the NMB will view it as extremely bad faith negotiating practices. They would almost certainly be willing to extend a proffer of arbitration at that point. With a supposal, the company doesn't have to worry about that. They can submit and retract supposals at a whim without the NMB even knowing, let along caring, about it. Once a full proposal is made, the company is basically bound by it. If the CNC accepts it, then that's it. It goes to the MEC for a vote and then out to memrat. Not so with a supposal. They can, and it appears that the did, pull the offer right off the table. If this truly was a legitimate offer as you seem to think, then why would management pull it from the table so quickly? If this is legitimate and they really want a deal, then why not leave it on the table to allow the MEC and CNC to further consider it? Use your head. None of this makes any sense. It's all just posturing on the part of the company. Trust your MEC and CNC, and stop micromanaging them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If this truly was a legitimate offer as you seem to think, then why would management pull it from the table so quickly?

It didn't come off the table, it apparently showed up on the table at SkyWest. It is classic whipsaw. You don't want it, OK, lets see if they want it. SkyWest holdings is growing and fishing for the best deal they can get. Come here, fishy fishy fishy...

 

[atrdriver]

I also applaud our CNC for their work.

How is it that time is on the side of the pilots? What am I missing?

The company is obviously under some amount of pressure to get us a contract. They are wanting to bid on other flying, etc, and that is hard to do when you don't fully know what your costs are. I would imagine that JA is also putting pressure on BL to get this done. While we don't like it, we can go on working under our current PWA without much problem, which makes a lot more sense than agreeing to a substandard agreement just to "get it done."

 

[atrdriver]

It didn't come off the table, it apparently showed up on the table at SkyWest. It is classic whipsaw. You don't want it, OK, lets see if they want it. SkyWest holdings is growing and fishing for the best deal they can get. Come here, fishy fishy fishy...

What has been offered to Skywest was never offered to us. The company has not yet "offered" a 2% across the board raise, a 4:10 min day, COLA increases, etc.

 

[HoserASA]

I'm also sure that if you choose to be a P2P rep., you should relay the facts and not your twisted version of the "facts". If you don't have the facts as stated by the CNC guy's, you should get them. We should be getting unbiased, correct information FROM you not GIVING it TO you.

OhPlease, I have no twisted version of the facts. I emailed the MEC & Neg Comm Chair as I had not received any info about this offer, supposal, whatever you want to call it. John Rice will brief this tomorrow at the LEC meeting, so you'll have your opportunity to ask him there, your face to his face, and all the others face to face. Think you can handle that?

I was told the offer, proposal, supposal etc was inadequate, did not address our issues, had minimal increase for the CR2/ATR, and no cola for the CR7. Rigs were neutered to point of being useless. The company is trying to tie all these issues to PBS, which pilot polling indicates no one wants in lieu of our current method of bidding.

As for the SKYW offer, it may or may not be real. The MEC has not verified it's authentic as the document is not on any official letterhead with signatures. The MEC says if true, it is greater compensation than anything presented informally by the company, and scheduling issues include items already agreed to in our Section 13.

So, call me names all you want but I honestly was not informed of this so-called unofficial supposal. Please question the Neg Comm Chair tomorrow if you attend the meeting. P2Ps don't always get all the info out there, which has been a sore spot with me for the 9+ years I've been on the P2P Comm.

Hoser
P2P

 

[Bizjet]

This appears to be true.

The company made a proposal - a proposal that answered most of ALPA's objections. While we hear lots about the Preferential Bidding, we have heard nearly nothing from our CNC.

I can say what we are not hearing is that our negotiating committee is still railing about a funded retirement plan. This is certainly on Doug Parrott's agenda. In my opinion scope should be a higher (and more realistic) priority.

I think the Company's offer should be recognized for what it is. A pretty good offer.

In the mean time more and more of "ASA's" flying is being transferred and Skywest is talking to Delta about changing the names on the asset purchase agreement. After all, ASA's deal to do 85% of the Atlanta DCi flying can be changed almost instantly to read "SkyWest."

What are we waiting for - an Atlanta SkyWest base? We know it's coming.

I can't believe you have read this thread and learned absolutely nothing. Don't panic now there aren't even any bullets flying. First take a deep breath and DON'T PANIC. Use some of your RJDC Stubborness and take it to the company and not in your shorts. READ MY LIPS-THERE WAS NO PROPOSAL. If you guys start down that road why should the MEC or CNC even try to find common ground during these informal meetings if you are going to act like CAVE MEN. Personally I hope they never meet informally again. ASA Management is using it as a tool against the MEC and you are allowing it to happen. Grow up and ignore this if you are not ready to give up to management. Management want you to demand to vote on something to gage the results. You are jumping in the quick sand after you read the sign that says DANGER QUICK SAND! GEEEZZZZ!!!!!:angryfire

 

[Bizjet]

Lately the union has done a poor job of keeping us informed about what is going on so a good rumor beats nothing. If a supposal/proposal was made, I shouldn't have to read about it on fltinfo.com. The union should have sent the details for us to review.

The invite for free/dues paid meal is nice but can't make it and shouldn't have to for negotiations updates.

Fly Safe...

There is plenty of information out there if you want to show some initative and GET IT. Babies are spoon fed and then they are weaned. It is time for you to get off the teat!

 

[HoserASA]

Well said ohplease. I'm tired of being lied to by the people I am paying to look out for my best interests. I'm not the only one ALPA - quit lying to us.

Just so you understand, you are not paying me anything to be a volunteer. I don't receive anything, no pay, additional time off, nothin, whatever, as a volunteer. And I am not lying to anyone. Read the previous response to ohplease. I would suggest if you can attend, show for tomorrow's LEC meeting and ask your questions there. The MEC will be there, the Neg Comm Chair (JohnRice) will be there, and the negotiating members you say told you all this will be too so you can confirm with them what they actually said to you, all face to face.

Hoser
P2P

 

[Bizjet]

I also applaud our CNC for their work.

How is it that time is on the side of the pilots? What am I missing?

The company is officially still asking for concessions. Yes the company that started with:

We want you to be the highest paid pilots in the regional industry, then

We Want you to be among the highest paid pilots in the regional industry, then

You must accept a Zero net gain contract,
then

What ever you want to call concessions is what they have been proposing and claiming they have never asked for concessions!

So when do you want to take pay cuts? It appears the sooner the better. Some people just want to know what to expect even if it is bad. If you were in the business world and your boss said he was going to cut your pay but never did would you call him ever day to remind him. You want a quality contract--stay the course. If you want to take cuts just to know the future then ask the CNC to include a question along the lines of would you take a concessionary contract in order to quickly know the outcome of this contract?
Do you think ASA/Skywest will be announcing more or less profits in the future? Who can more easily wait for these negotiations to conclude? The ASA pilots or ASA/SkyWest management? If we vote for a quality contract JA is going to dump his pants. If we cave he will come after his own pilots with our substandard contract. The SkyWest pilots have very little if any job protection against JA doing anything he wants. Let's show them the years of abuse at the hands of ASA management will not be sanctioned by our pilots ever again. Management fear is a much better for us than their respect for us when we finish this contract. Think about it. You will say something really rude on occasion when a friend catches you at a bad time. If the guy was 6'8" and weighed 300 lbs. and didn't like you would you think before opening your mouth to him! If you want to continue to panic put your name on a list and place it on one of the many B.B.'s in the crew lounge. Ask others to join you and then management will give you time off to continue to post this kind of drivel on the site here with PAY. Come on ladies THINK before typing!uke:

 

[ASACAPT]

ASA LEC Meeting Friday

To all of you monday morning quarterbacks, why dont you all show up at the LEC meeting in ATL tmrw at the Doubbletree hotel by the airport at 10am. You will all have the oppertunity to hear the truth from the horses mouth, instead of reading it here.

 

[Bizjet]

I'm sure they would. But, you've missed the whole point of the discussion. dumbass. But, thats perfectly normal for you. Never mind the facts....of anything....just shout out loud how much of a dumbass you are.

ignorant moron!

Our management speaks with forked tongue PaleFace. They have lied so much that we should not even sit down across the table with these people in informal talks. The last time they took back everything that had proposed previously. They are taking advantage of the MEC because they are unethical. You believe what you want and trust who you want. Those who deal with the clowns know better.

 

[ohplease!]

You have your own poll that you conduct ASADriver? ALPA constantly conducts polls of our pilot group, and this determines what the MEC and Negotiation Team negotiate for. They don't read or respond to anything posted on flightinfo.

There is no "unofficial" offer as you state, nor a Skywest offer. The only way this gets done is through the RLA,which is law. We have to go through steps/processes to achieve a TA, or the NMB releases us. Even then the President can prevent us from actually going out on strike. It's stacked against labor, and greatly favors management, especially with the Republicians in power. Read the material ALPA mails you to get a better understanding of the process.

Hoser
P2P

if you did/do not have all the information out there, you should get the latest information before passing your opinion or old information off as official P2P in the know information.

I do read any and all information mailed and e-mailed from ALPA natl. and our MEC and I do understand the process completely.

I do take any opportunity to speak to the CNC members and get the "latest" info. I have not and will not micromanage the CNC/MEC but, I will not simply spout the "party line" mindlessly. If I disagree with something I let it be known, however unpopular that makes me.

 

[Bizjet]

Yes, many probably would take what Skywest currently has, with the new "offer" thrown in, as long as it was in the form of a binfing contract, and not just a pilocy manual. Except the PBS. This, however, has NOT been offered to us. In fact, the company has not even broached the idea of profit sharing. Why don't you call BL and ask HIM why the company has not offered us the Skywest "contract"? Afraid of what he would say?

Withdrawn!

 

[atlcrjdriver]

There is plenty of information out there if you want to show some initative and GET IT. Babies are spoon fed and then they are weaned. It is time for you to get off the teat!

Well lets see, the MEC website is about as useless as reading one of your posts. When and if you can find a P2P, its like this "If you ask five people the same question you get five different answers". They send these ASA MEC e-mails that lately don't say anything. I'm paying dues and even voted yes to get this thing done. I shouldn't have to find the secret squirrel to get the latest intel.

Answer this Biz, Why wasn't the latest supposal sent in the ASA MEC e-mails. The rank and file shouldn't have to find out about it some message board.

 

[ohplease!]

Our management speaks with forked tongue PaleFace. They have lied so much that we should not even sit down across the table with these people in informal talks. The last time they took back everything that had proposed previously. They are taking advantage of the MEC because they are unethical. You believe what you want and trust who you want. Those who deal with the clowns know better.

you are correct. there have been lies and half-truths on both sides. I don't take EITHER of the at their word.

If I have learned nothing else in all my years, I have learned there at 3 sides to every story.

yours/mine/the complete unbiased truth
his/hers/ " " "
them/theirs/ " " "

well, you get the idea.

 

[ohplease!]

Answer this Biz, Why wasn't the latest supposal sent in the ASA MEC e-mails. The rank and file shouldn't have to find out about it some message board.

let me answer with logic before he screws it up: it wasn't sent out to rank and file because the company withdrew it.

 

[Bizjet]

let me answer with logic before he screws it up: it wasn't sent out to rank and file because the company withdrew it.

Thanks for trying to answer there Oh Tease. Have you ever thought that the company wants to control the leak of information for their own agenda. If they wanted to keep these informal talks private unless there was something beneficial to release they should have not started a misinformation campaign. Now back to our regular news.

Oh Please go ahead with your live report from the ASA Management party at BL's house. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[ASADriver]

They are having informal meetings because the company requested them, and ALPA would like to get this contract done. They are not willing to sign a crappy deal to get it done though, and I applaud them for that. Time is working against the company, not us.

I don't think the last offer was "crappy". Are you still going to say that time is on our sides when they transfer more airplanes?

 

[ASADriver]

You are so interested in "getting it done" that you are willing to take a substandard contract in that effort. Most of us are not.

The last offer, or the Skywest SAPA proposal are not substandard. They are both better than many other regionals. What is your standard?

 

[ASADriver]

Are you really do dumb that you don't understand that no matter what happens in the informal meetings that it is NOT AN OFFICIAL OFFER until the company goes to the NMB and gets negotiations resumed? Do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THAT???????

I believe a deal could be taken to the mediator. But both sides have to agree to the deal first. Our side apparantly didn't agree because of PBS.