Latest ASA offer

[~~~^~~~]

Contary to JoeMerchants incessant rants that we are not trying for one list with SkyWest and that we are going for substandard Scope protection....

If SkyWest votes in a union there will be very little incentive for JA to keep the operations separate. We won't have to buy it.

WHOA, "I am uncomfortable, I AM UNCOMFORTABLE, THIS IS STUPID, MY AIRPLANE!"

Bizjet - Many of your posts lead me to think you are pretty well in tune with the CNC and MEC. Please tell me our scope section is not contingent on SkyWest going ALPA (or Teamsters).

For one thing, the history of ALPA's representational votes are now 5 losses, 1 win since I've been employed at ASA. ALPA has had zero wins in the United States. The SkyWest pilots are reaping a windfall at our expense, many SkyWest pilots are going to want that to continue. ALPA has failed miserably at representing small jet pilots. As much as I would LOVE to see ALPA on the SkyWest property, I will be surprised if they do it. I know SkyWest pilots are a nice group of folks and all, but why would they want to bail us out?

Teamsters would be even worse a strategy. ALPA tried to do the right thing at TSA / GoJets and failed beacuse Teamsters fought ALPA's Single Carrier Petition.

And even if SkyWest does vote ALPA, then what? ASA never merged with Comair.

This approach is way too risky. I know the crew is tired and we want to get to the hotel, but it is time for Go Around Thrust, Spoilers in, Flaps 8.....

A better strategy is to make scope priority #1. When the SkyWest pilots learn that ALPA can use scope to capture flying and growth, then they will be eager to sign on and share in our success. They will fear the dealing we can do with ALPA and want to have that same ability to provide security. (yes, I know you think I'm contradicting myself on the issue of predatory scope, but the SkyWest pilots are not ALPA members and we owe them no fiduciary duty - if they want us to treat them as ALPA members, they can vote ALPA on the property)

Your post reminds me a little of TWA / American. ALPA failed to property represent the TWA pilots while Duane was hoping to sign on the American Airlines pilots. After all, Duane was fresh from his victory with the Continental scabs. Instead the TWA guys got screwed and American pilots remain outside of ALPA. A weak, pandering, union never wins a representational vote.

If ALPA wants to succeed it needs to start from a position of strength. Allowing the transfer of our flying might make SkyWest pilots happy about the ASA aquisition, but it does nothing to make them want to become ALPA members.

It was once said, "If you have them by the short hairs, their hearts and minds will follow." ALPA should have SkyWest pilots afraid of not voting ALPA. Instead they see us as ineffectively trying to negotiate a contract with no scope. Of course, I don't know how close they are following our debate, at least half of them are studying for upgrades.

Mark this post, I'm thinking there is a good chance ALPA will convince SkyWest pilots of the value of a union, they will look around the industry and decide Teamsters is a better deal. Teamsters will use the tools that ALPA refuses to allow "small jet pilots" to utilize and eventually a much smaller ASA will also vote Teamsters rather than face sure destruction from a more powerful foe.

Don't get me wrong - I think ALPA is a better bet for SkyWest pilots and I hope they sign on, I just don't see it happening and I think this is a really risky strategy.

~~~^~~~

Thanks for your post - I'm not slamming you, but if we are hoping to get a "freebie" scope section depending on the outcome of a SkyWest representational vote, no way. You probably know better than I do the mood of the SkyWest pilots, but I've observed ALPA's history of screwing similar situations up. We need to be careful, Duane doesn't need our votes.

If SkyWest votes ALPA before an ASA TA, great, we both got lucky. But if we TA a deal with no scope we are truly fools, idiots and everything 737Pylt claims we are.

 

[WWEfan]

From what I have heard they indicated that they were open to talk about fragmenation, but were not interested in a no furlough clause....

Who gives a rat's ass about a no furlough clause? That clause did alot for Delta

 

[WWEfan]

<<Firehoser, the fuel question was specifically asked to BL and he said it was totally irrelevant, as it is a "flow-through cost" that is paid directly by Delta. It has nothing whatsoever to do with us making or losing money.
>>

You missed my point. The point is that $45 million in profit a quarter looks like a lot of money until you put into perspective against the total operational cost for that quarter. If no money were coming in (as in the condition that Delta suddenly cancels our contract when the renewal comes up - see United and ACA), $45 million in the bank probably wouldn't pay the employee salaries for one pay period. It looks like a lot, but against the big picture - it isn't. My intent was to take some easily defined numbers to get an idea of the quarterly operating costs at ASA to make the point. By the way thanks for a constructive, intelligent reply as opposed to........

<< Did you make up these numbers or are you smoking crack?>>

ATLCrashPad, yes actually I did "make up" these numbers. If you had taken the time to research the numbers, if you had any desire to enage in a constructive discussion, you would find that they are in fact, low. I intentionally low-balled the numbers. My intent in doing so was..............

never mind. I just remembered the old saying: "Don't argue with a fool - people might not see the difference between the two of you" Its foolish to argue with a closed mind, a brick wall, or a fungo bat. So rant on if you wish.

Delta didn't cancel our contract after we signed the '98 deal and at the time that contract was industry leading. Also at that time Delta merely had to give 30 days notice to cancel. Now Delta has more criteria to meet before they can cancel because Atkin actually negotiated some protection for ASA.

The company will argue we need to be the 2nd cheapest blah blah blah....
Well who is to say we won't be even if we get everything we ask for? We arent the only airline in section 6 negotiations. All those other guys (except mesa) are watching us and will demand ASA + a small percentage. 3 or 4 years from now our new contract may be the worst (except for mesa who will sell their own mothers to fly shiny new jets) in the industry.

 

[ASADriver]

"Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason
Offer last week from ASA:

-Payraise for 50/ATR
-No paycut for 700
-$1.55 perdiem increasing to $1.60
-Skywest training pilot section
-1:2 duty rigs
-401k improvements
-PBS

ALPA said NO
This from a voting member of the MEC"

Here is a couple of things that you all have to keep in mind.

- After almost 4 years of negotiating the company finaly offered us current book on the CR7. A rate that Chitaqua will exlipse in 2007 when they also open up a negotiation for their new contract.

- The company had stated in a previous meeting that the rates on the CR2 and AT7 had to come up. And on the meeting in question, they had not changed their position from thair last official table position - + 1.5% DOS and and additional +1.6% DOS + 24 mos. These rates would at DOS be approximately 7-8% BELOW Chitaqua and at DOS +24 about 10% below Chitaqua, and then they would open up a new section 6 negotiation.

- The duty rig offer that they came up with, 1 for 2, is not as good as the rigs at SkyWest. They have 1 for 2 up to 12 hours and therafter a 1 for 1. In addition to this they tied it to the implementation of a PBS system.

- Why should we accept less perdiem than SkyWest?

- 401 (k) improvements did bring us closer to the SkyWest system, but still way below what ExpressJet and Comair has. In addition to this there were severak issues that were not adressed such as improved investment options and the establishment of an retirement committee.

All these things aside, the most disturbing thing was that the company did not want to contact the mediator in order to get back to the table. When the union asked about getting back to the table, their answer was that if the union is not going to signe the deal that they presented, they had no more room to move, hence there was no point in getting back to the table since we were still to far apart.

Another thing to consider is that if we were to get back to the table and were able to reduce the number of issues that we are apart on, there is an increased likelyhood that the NMB would infact release us into selfhelp. That might be the reaseon that ASA management does not want to get back to the NMB.

Also consider this. Just prior to the Comair strike in 2001, they were apart abot $60 million at DOS, we are only about $23 million apart. And the unions position in not their final position, which means that we are even closer than that.

The fact of the matter is that company's offer is essentially current book with the implementation of PBS and a sub standard duty rig. I would agree that this would have been a good first step that the two parties could restart the negotiations and come up with a deal that would have been good for both parties.

Why all the secrecy ASACAPT? A member of the negotiating committee verified this offer in the crew lounge yesterday and said that we aren't interested in PBS. Why wasn't this offer published to the pilots? We have a right to know and some of us are tired of not being kept in the loop. I'm not sure I want PBS, but I am willing to take this deal. Let us vote on something.

 

[Bizjet]

WHOA, "I am uncomfortable, I AM UNCOMFORTABLE, THIS IS STUPID, MY AIRPLANE!"

Bizjet - Many of your posts lead me to think you are pretty well in tune with the CNC and MEC. Please tell me our scope section is not contingent on SkyWest going ALPA (or Teamsters).

If SkyWest votes ALPA before an ASA TA, great, we both got lucky. But if we TA a deal with no scope we are truly fools, idiots and everything 737Pylt claims we are.

The following are my opinions only and do not represent MEC policy or positions. Contrary to JoeMerchant's BS I am not on the ASA MEC but I do support and trust them because I know they have our best interest at heart.

The SkyWest pilots need a reason to join a union. An ASA successful T/A will provide some of that impudence they need to challenge JA and his writing his rules as he goes along mentality. Delta never wanted to merge the two airlines (ASA/Comair). They realized that buying us was a mistake but were so far behind the 8 ball that it took a bankruptcy to get them to sell us for some emergency cash. They couldn't sell Comair because the value of Comair was much less than ASA. It also gave regional managements a chance to have mainline airline management write code share contracts that encouraged the race to the bottom if they were to acquiring flying.

We are not likely to get SkyWest pilots to want a single list with us. They need a reason and that will be provided with an ASA quality contract. Scope is a separate issue. We need to buy our own scope as part of these negotiations. Every pilot here should be willing to make it a strike issue. However, many won't because they see themselves as just passing through. In order to have success at our level we must get certain contractual language and Scope is the most important. JoeMerchant wants us to gut our contract giving us nothing to negotiate with. We will have MOST pilots then wanting to leave this debacle of an airline because the MEC was weak. We know his race to the bottom is not well thought out. His hatred for ALPA and this MEC is forcing him to choose the wrong strategy. If you have nothing this management wants there are no deals to be struck.

Our pilots also have to believe in the power of the pilots to bring this deal to a close. Many continue to do everything possible to keep this airline running. That is NOT THEIR JOB. If Delta and SkyWest management don't care about our passengers why should we voluntarily add that to our job description? If the pilots could just understand that THEY are the key to a successful contract we could close this deal in a few months. The company is stalling because they think time is own their side. Given enough reasons they could approach the NMB and request to return to the table and the NMB would restart negotiations. They would then have to produce or we would be much closer to a release. We need to stop the informal talks with our management because they are not the decision makers. We need to convey this message to the NMB that two times now our management has requested to stop negotiations in order to cost out our proposals and then seek permission from the decision makers to give them more negotiating capital. Who they are talking with needs to be at the table and the NMB needs to be pressured to bring them in. We need to engage in collective bargaining and stop this collective begging. Again our pilots are the key to all of this. The younger pilots need to realize that they are never going to get this management to respect us. All they need to do is look at how they treat the passengers that provide the revenue for our existence and easily understand that respect for us (the ones who require pay to continue to provide our services) is not possible or even necessary. Fear is a much stronger weapon against an abusive management than gaining their respect. If they fear us and the power of the pilot group to act as one they will actually behave as though they like and respect us. Comair had this in 2001 but due to their union leadership getting weak over the last two years has made that nothing more than a memory.

Back to the scope question. Delta pilots do not own scope. They lease it in every contact they sign. If they owned it they wouldn't continue to have to pay for it. They then trade if off for something they value more. Delta management refused to negotiate with ASA/Comair for flying because they feared the large number of Delta pilots and the clout that comes with those large numbers. Delta management knows that the Delta pilots will trade away part of the scope they just leased. This allows the regional’s to continue to grow and Delta to shrink. This provides a balance in the allotted flying and less power for the Delta pilots. All of us are responsible for the problems we now face. Mainline pilots should have never given away any of the undesirable flying. That was the start of all their problems. Now they are starting new carriers to provide jobs for their furloughed pilots. This is no accident. The code share pilots are in the race to the bottom. Mainline will use these new carriers for low cost jobs and in the future many of the pilots entering the work force will likely start at these NEW Union created airlines and move over to the newly down sized mainline carriers as positions open. The regional’s as we know them will consolidate and some will just go away. ALPA has no problem with this strategy. It is time to start defending the regional airlines that still have descent contracts and encourage minimum contract standards to ensure the quality of the jobs. Once we just give away our hard fought contracts we have lost. We will never get them back.

We need to DEMAND SCOPE and if ALPA can't support us in obtaining it we need to ask for outside counsel to prevent ALPA from just going through the motions and saying SCOPE is just not available this time around.

Pay attention to the organizing drive at SkyWest. If ALPA pushes for a vote before ASA has a quality T/A it will likely fail. If ASA produces a quality contract and copies are provided to all SkyWest pilots to read it will create the numbers to make for a strong vote for union representation. ASA is carrying the fight for the whole regional industry. This is the most important fight for the top tier regional’s because if we fail JA WINS. ALPA and their creation of their own alter ego airlines WINS. Mainline management WINS by having most of the growth shifted to the newly ALPA sponsored low cost junior seniority alter ego preferred carriers as growth is slowly shifted. Those working at the new alter ego carriers will find life in the minor leagues tolerable because it is the way to the quality mainline jobs in the future. They will be pulling on the same end of the ALPA rope. Things will be better for everyone except those that have many years invested in building the regional industry to where is is today and looking to increase the quality of these airlines in the future. LIVING TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY IS NO LOINGER AN OPTION. We are being tested NOW. This is the most important contract fight and ASA pilots were not chosen to lead the fight is was just dumped in their lap. Too many other carriers have already shown they will buy growth and play the race to the bottom game. There are only a few regional’s left who have not sold out. Which list will we be added to. Show this management that you have had enough and will do YOUR JOB only!!!!!!!!

 

[wms]

"Originally Posted by AVoiceOfReason
Offer last week from ASA:

-Payraise for 50/ATR
-No paycut for 700
-$1.55 perdiem increasing to $1.60
-Skywest training pilot section
-1:2 duty rigs
-401k improvements
-PBS

ALPA said NO
This from a voting member of the MEC"

Here is a couple of things that you all have to keep in mind.

- After almost 4 years of negotiating the company finaly offered us current book on the CR7. A rate that Chitaqua will exlipse in 2007 when they also open up a negotiation for their new contract.

- The company had stated in a previous meeting that the rates on the CR2 and AT7 had to come up. And on the meeting in question, they had not changed their position from thair last official table position - + 1.5% DOS and and additional +1.6% DOS + 24 mos. These rates would at DOS be approximately 7-8% BELOW Chitaqua and at DOS +24 about 10% below Chitaqua, and then they would open up a new section 6 negotiation.

- The duty rig offer that they came up with, 1 for 2, is not as good as the rigs at SkyWest. They have 1 for 2 up to 12 hours and therafter a 1 for 1. In addition to this they tied it to the implementation of a PBS system.

- Why should we accept less perdiem than SkyWest?

- 401 (k) improvements did bring us closer to the SkyWest system, but still way below what ExpressJet and Comair has. In addition to this there were severak issues that were not adressed such as improved investment options and the establishment of an retirement committee.

All these things aside, the most disturbing thing was that the company did not want to contact the mediator in order to get back to the table. When the union asked about getting back to the table, their answer was that if the union is not going to signe the deal that they presented, they had no more room to move, hence there was no point in getting back to the table since we were still to far apart.

Another thing to consider is that if we were to get back to the table and were able to reduce the number of issues that we are apart on, there is an increased likelyhood that the NMB would infact release us into selfhelp. That might be the reaseon that ASA management does not want to get back to the NMB.

Also consider this. Just prior to the Comair strike in 2001, they were apart abot $60 million at DOS, we are only about $23 million apart. And the unions position in not their final position, which means that we are even closer than that.

The fact of the matter is that company's offer is essentially current book with the implementation of PBS and a sub standard duty rig. I would agree that this would have been a good first step that the two parties could restart the negotiations and come up with a deal that would have been good for both parties.

Anything less than SKW 50-seat pay and work rules(tweaked to our needs) with no less than our current rates on the 700...plus retro. Anything else is a no vote. PBS in a side letter later.

We were red-headed step children when we were owned by DAL, and our current ASA mgmt along with our new owners want to keep us the same way. We are not a "B-scale" for SKW!!! And the only reason DAL 757 (if he is DAL) and other DAL pilots care about our contract is because a strike by us could ruin it for them. They don't care about ASA, only their own future. I'd rather see ASA go down and take whoever with us, than to see ASA mgmt take advantage of us again.

 

[atrdriver]

Why all the secrecy ASACAPT? A member of the negotiating committee verified this offer in the crew lounge yesterday and said that we aren't interested in PBS. Why wasn't this offer published to the pilots? We have a right to know and some of us are tired of not being kept in the loop. I'm not sure I want PBS, but I am willing to take this deal. Let us vote on something.

Nice to know you are willing to take a deal that you know nothing about. I've got a boat, want to pay me $10,000 for it?

 

[ASADriver]

Nice to know you are willing to take a deal that you know nothing about. I've got a boat, want to pay me $10,000 for it?

Then how about showing it to the membership and letting us vote on it? It has been verified that the offer was made. It's simple, put it down on paper and send it out for a vote.

 

[atrdriver]

Then how about showing it to the membership and letting us vote on it? It has been verified that the offer was made. It's simple, put it down on paper and send it out for a vote.

By that logic, the MEC should have put the companies original opening offer out for a vote as well. Along with every concessionary offer that has been made. The company, in this latest "supposal", still has no premium pay, and Dh is still at 50%. A 1:2 duty rig wont do a thing for us without a trip rig, and min days. Maybe you are willing to do your job for less money, but the majority of our pilots aren't, and the MEC knows that. Plus, it is NOT an offer unless the NMB is involved in it.

 

[ASA_Willy]

They'll give Wille the helm and tell him to steer the pilots right into the third level of Hades.

Man, Willy loves the power!

Coopervane, where'd you find that hot mama avatar??????