Latest ASA offer

[FL990]

I talked to one of the negotiating members and he verifiied that the offer was made. He said it was declined because of pref. bidding. Why can't ALPA at least be honest and say they don't like the deal because of pref. bidding. What's with all the lies and secrets.

What lies and secrets...he told you they declined the "offer" because of pref bidding. Sounds like the only one that looks silly here is you.

Look, They spent YEARS working on section 13 of this contract and mgmt came in and tried to eliminate all of that work in one swoop!! NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Polling has shown that the majority of pilots are sceptical about pref bidding. The best thing for us to do is finish the contract with its current section 13, THEN go back and work on pref bidding.

And as someone else on this board has said, these so called "offers" are not official until they are made in contract language, infront of the NMB.

 

[Crash Pad]

Giving credit... I thought this thread had gone to crap on the middle pages that discussed woman and scabs... It is resiliant, however, who wants to take a high low on how many pages. Let me help it.

90 seaters on the ramp for northwest... Could management know we are getting the flying and trying to settle the contract in a hurry?

 

[CFIT]

90 seaters on the ramp for northwest... Could management know we are getting the flying and trying to settle the contract in a hurry?

Say again.....
Care to elaborate?

 

[ASA_Willy]

Profit margin v. profitability

Good point - you are right - its not the absolute numbers - its the profit numbers in relation to the cost structure - that is in fact the point I was trying to make with my figures. (Don't look at the absolute numbers - look at the profit numbers in relation to the cost numbers). A good non-airline example that also illustrates your point is oil company profits. Their percentage profit hasn't gone up but the price per barrel has - its the producer's price increase that is giving them the huge profit numbers - they are not gouging the public by charging more (in the sense of increasing their profit margins).

But nonetheless every business (and private individual) needs to hang on to some money to weather through the droughts, some money to improve and update infrastructure, and some "play" money available to take advantage of industry opportunites. Its hard to do that on a 7% profit margin with the volumes (cash flow) we are currently looking at, the vunerabilities we have to forces outside our control (fuel price, terrorism, etc.), and the increasing downward pressure on ticket prices as the number of players in our industry increases providing more choice for the customer.

Man, it's tough to keep up with this thread, since Willy has a job and a life, but I can't let you get away with the above so easily. You have a nice way with words, but have completely misrepresented my point. It is NOT about profit against the "cost structure". It IS about profit compared to investment.

You and Joe Merchant talk about profit margin as if it had some magical quality. But you can't talk about profit margin (which isn't even what your original numbers actually showed) as the key indicator of the company's financial well-being. The numbers you were throwing around are return on expenses, which is nice to know, but your 5% "profit margin" is only meaningful in comparison to similarly structured businesses. You can't be profitably in the long term without a positive return to expense ratio, but it is not the definition of profitability. A thin margin makes it tough going, but profitability is all about return on investment. In other words, am I making a good return on the capital I have tied up in the business?

If you want to do a snapshot of ASA's profitability, how about discussing the owner's return on investment? Skywest Holding paid $425M last year for full ownership and you say the 2nd qtr profit was $45M ? That is a quarterly ROI of over 10%, which annualizes to an incredible 42% ROI. Now that's some profitability. If Willy could get that kind of return on his investments, he would have quit working long ago! And if a new pilot contract really did cost $23M/yr (I can't vouch for that number), it would only reduce the ROI to around 36%. A big drop, but hardly a financial disaster.

So please don't get on here and try and make folks nervous about the company's profitability. Your "profit margin" and "cost structure" talk is all smoke and mirrors. We can make plenty of money for the owners, even if the pilots do get a raise. There is certainly a lot of risk in the airline business, but for now ASA is a real money maker for its owners. So far this venture has been very profitable for the gang out in St. George.

 

[atrdriver]

If you want to do a snapshot of ASA's profitability, how about discussing the owner's return on investment? Skywest Holding paid $425M last year for full ownership and you say the 2nd qtr profit was $45M ? That is a quarterly ROI of over 10%, which annualizes to an incredible 42% ROI. Now that's some profitability. If Willy could get that kind of return on his investments, he would have quit working long ago! And if a new pilot contract really did cost $23M/yr (I can't vouch for that number), it would only reduce the ROI to around 36%. A big drop, but hardly a financial disaster.

In other words, at a profit number of 45 million per quarter, Skywests investment will be fully paid for in 2 1/2 years.

 

[ASA_Willy]

In other words, at a profit number of 45 million per quarter, Skywests investment will be fully paid for in 2 1/2 years.

Exactly. With the fire sale price and the DCI contract, Skywest got a hell of a bargain. As long as Delta stays afloat for a couple more years, SKYW is just about guaranteed to recover its investment and still hold whatever residual value there is in the company.

There's plenty of money to be made in thin margin industries as long as the revenue to capital ratio is good and you can keep the margin on the plus side of zero. Groceries chains are the classic example with profit margins (that's return on revenue) of 2% or less.

 

[goodto50meters]

Why all the secrecy ASACAPT? A member of the negotiating committee verified this offer in the crew lounge yesterday and said that we aren't interested in PBS. Why wasn't this offer published to the pilots? We have a right to know and some of us are tired of not being kept in the loop. I'm not sure I want PBS, but I am willing to take this deal. Let us vote on something.

What secrecy? You just said a CNC member told you in the crew lounge.

And, a certain member of management with a gift for blankness verified it too. Another thing he verified is that the 700 rates would obstensively stay where they are now for 5 years. (because that is the contract legnth they want now too) and by my calculations, add another 4 years to negotiate the next contract , that gives us a grand total of 9....NINE....NINER.....FUC@ING NINE....90% OF A DECADE....years without so much as a cost of living increase! Meanwhile the profits roll on in.

BTW, the rates have been where they are now for four years already, so current rates for [email protected]% OF A DECADE.....13% OF A CENTURY......years! NO NO NO way!!!!!

Another thing he verified was that they are not interested in our scope issues or in any retro, measly increases in the 200. Dead on arrival as far as I am concerned.

You are screwing with us right ASA DRIVER (if that is what you really do)? You want to have a vote on a TA that is what we have now? Why? These a$$pirates have screwed with us for four years starting with ZERO-NET-GAIN, moving down to concessions, then after they get you worn down, OK, we will give you what you already have. And this is a good deal to you?

Thank god our reps are not as weaka$$ as you. I am glad they havent wasted our time in voting on a TA that will never pass anyway.

And another thing, how are you out of the loop if you were put in the loop via your crew lounge conversation with the CNC? Just another anti ALPA rant I suppose right?

 

[goodto50meters]

So there won't be a problem with presenting this offer to the pilots. If it isn't what they want, they can vote it down. Let the pilots decide.

So you want to be able to vote in a pilot-wide election every time an offer and counteroffer is offered at the offering table?

In what century would you like a final agreement sir? ahhem....or maaaam?

 

[goodto50meters]

But you ALWAYS believe the propaganda management puts out, right, William?

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Regardless, verbal proposals, or ones written in crayon on the back of a napkin do not make up an "offer" for the union to shoot down. If the company wants to make a serious offer, they need to call the NMB and get back to the table.

Until then no real offer exists, and my MEC did the right thing by telling the company no!!! And you know what? 92.6% of our pilot support the MEC! The last company poll showed that 8% of pilots trust Flight Operations management. Spin that one, Sport!

Great points!

This whole 'off the table' discussions thing with the company smells like a plot to me. Management only wants to do this so as to not have to deal in front of the NMB. They then send out their paid spin henchmen to say they made this great offer but the evil union said no. Isnt it convenient that there is no third party around to set the record straight.

Our guys did the right thing in at least trying yet again to deal with these people. It is too bad it was all a plot in the first place.

If management wants a deal they can make an official offer in front of the NMB.

Otherwise Brian & Jerry, I already have my current contract! I wont screw myself and extend it for another nine years, nice try.

 

[goodto50meters]

It IS time for ALPA to start getting something to US to decide on.

No sir. It is time for MANAGEMENT to stop playing with themselves and agree to something reasonable with our negotiators in order for us to decide on.

The MEC's job is not to just 'get you something to decide on', rather it is to negotiate a good contract taking in all the information available and have you decide on that. Not just anything.

 

[jehtplane]

Lest you not forget a voice of reason is a voice of management trying to stir the pot, please tell everyone how do you guys in the glass house sleep at night?

 

[ASACAPT]

"Originally Posted by ASADriver
I talked to one of the negotiating members and he verifiied that the offer was made. He said it was declined because of pref. bidding. Why can't ALPA at least be honest and say they don't like the deal because of pref. bidding. What's with all the lies and secrets."

The fact that the "offer" was turned down, was not only because of PBS, but because it is essentially current book with PBS. What a deal....

 

[goodto50meters]

I hate to speak up here since this is really an ASA matter, but you are misunderstanding the difference between a formal offer and a "supposal." Pinnacle management came to us with a "supposal" last year also. It is not considered an offer under the law. The entire purpose of a supposal is to circumvent the Section 6 bargaining process and "suppose we were to offer this, what would you think?" Under Section 6 negotiations, any formal offer cannot be removed from the table once it has been made. That would be considered bad faith bargaining by the NMB. However, a supposal made in an informal session isn't constrained by these rules of bargaining under Section 6. The company is merely trying to gauge what your MEC and CNC are willing to accept. I can guarantee if the CNC had showed some willingness to take the offer, then management would have promptly removed it from the table, come up with a slightly less appealing offer, and then formally submit the new offer in front of the mediator. They are trying to figure out just how low the CNC and MEC are willing to go without actually submitting anything formally at this point. Your CNC and MEC were smart enough not to take the bait. You should thank them and be happy that they are smarter than some of the rank-and-file that would like to see everything put up for a vote. You elected these reps for a reason: to represent and bargain on your behalf. Let them do their job.

Right on target!

 

[goodto50meters]

Lest you not forget a voice of reason is a voice of management trying to stir the pot, please tell everyone how do you guys in the glass house sleep at night?

jehtplane,

You have a nice assitar!

 

[ASARJMan]

Lest you not forget a voice of reason is a voice of management trying to stir the pot, please tell everyone how do you guys in the glass house sleep at night?

Voice is LJ, older gf of Joe Merchant. Voice of Reason, geez, the crap she has done in her years here. Sorriest CP we ever had too btw, catered to the young pilots who stroked her ego.

VOTED IN FAVOR!