Latest ASA offer

[atrdriver]

I don't care if it is "official" or not, get it done.

You are so interested in "getting it done" that you are willing to take a substandard contract in that effort. Most of us are not.

 

[atrdriver]

I believe the majority would take the "unofficial" offer, or the Skywest offer that was just posted. I believe some are holding out for alot more.

Yes, many probably would take what Skywest currently has, with the new "offer" thrown in, as long as it was in the form of a binfing contract, and not just a pilocy manual. Except the PBS. This, however, has NOT been offered to us. In fact, the company has not even broached the idea of profit sharing. Why don't you call BL and ask HIM why the company has not offered us the Skywest "contract"? Afraid of what he would say?

 

[atrdriver]

Hoser,
Chris, Yngve, and Doug confirmed there was an offer. They also confirmed that this offer was declined because of PBS. If you are P2P, then why are you lieing about this offer. If you are lieing about this offer, then what else are you lieing about?

There is NOTHING stopping the company from taking their "offer" and giving it to the NMB. They won't do it because they know that the NMB would not consider it enough movement to resume talks. That is from the Chairman of the MEC. If you want to ge the facts, then talk to him. I have. Obviously you haven't.

 

[atrdriver]

So if ALPA has done scientific polling, and it has determined that we don't want this deal, why doesn't it just say so? ALPA wouldn't lie to us would they? Take the deal, and let the membership vote on it. The membership will let you know if it is acceptable. Is ALPA afraid of what the membership will say?

Are you really do dumb that you don't understand that no matter what happens in the informal meetings that it is NOT AN OFFICIAL OFFER until the company goes to the NMB and gets negotiations resumed? Do you REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THAT???????

 

[atrdriver]

PS- No person over 5'6" or older than 19 actually uses the term DRIVER to describe what they do. Why don't you come stand next to me in the pilot's lounge so I have some place to put my frosty while I eat my Moe's...... dork.

Hey now...

 

[atrdriver]

please tell me you are smart enough/reasonable enough/have common sense enough to realize ....had our CNC agreed to the terms being presented as a "what if?" scenario, ASA would have called the NMB and asked for a meeting and they would have offered it "officially" on the record.

And please tell me that you are smart enough/reasonable enough/have enough common sense to realize that PBS would negate over a year of our negotiations. The company was asked IN THIS NEGIATIONS whether they wanted to pursue PBS, and they said no, THREE TIMES. That is why we spent so much time on section 13. PBS would negate all that time. IF the company wants it now, let them get it in a side letter.

As far as your assertion that it is not that bad once you get used to it, it all depends on what system is used. Some are very good (old TWA system), some are very bad. Most pilot groups that have it report that senior pilots really like it, while the junior pilots don't.

 

[ohplease!]

And please tell me that you are smart enough/reasonable enough/have enough common sense to realize that PBS would negate over a year of our negotiations. The company was asked IN THIS NEGIATIONS whether they wanted to pursue PBS, and they said no, THREE TIMES. That is why we spent so much time on section 13. PBS would negate all that time. IF the company wants it now, let them get it in a side letter.

As far as your assertion that it is not that bad once you get used to it, it all depends on what system is used. Some are very good (old TWA system), some are very bad. Most pilot groups that have it report that senior pilots really like it, while the junior pilots don't.

there absolutely has been a proposal (since withdrawn by the company). I'm not saying the CNC should have but, had they agreed to it, both parties could have and would have called the NMB and it would have been offered "officially".

I've said this same thing several times. IF you could/would chill out, have a reasonable/calm discussion you would see that I have not said the CNC should agree to it.

It was an answer to another knee-jerk reaction by a different "jerk" who consistantly spreads lies and half-truths.

BTW, the CNC will tell you, as they did me and many others, they feel that PBS is probably inevitable at some point. It could be a good thing as long as the software/system is good.

 

[atrdriver]

there absolutely has been a proposal (since withdrawn by the company). I'm not saying the CNC should have but, had they agreed to it, both parties could have and would have called the NMB and it would have been offered "officially".

I've said this same thing several times. IF you could/would chill out, have a reasonable/calm discussion you would see that I have not said the CNC should agree to it.

It was an answer to another knee-jerk reaction by a different "jerk" who consistantly spreads lies and half-truths.

BTW, the CNC will tell you, as they did me and many others, they feel that PBS is probably inevitable at some point. It could be a good thing as long as the software/system is good.

Yes, PBS is probably coming at some point. But, looking at everything else this company does, do you REALLY think that the company is going to get a "good" system? The only way that any PBS system will be good for the pilots is if the union has a lot of control over the software, and I would be willing to bet that the company will fight that tooth and nail.

As far the what was offered being "official", yes the company can call the NMB anytime it wants and give their "proposal" to the mediator for cinsideration. With the "movement" that they have made, it is unlikely that the mediator would even contact ALPA to tell them about it. That is from the chair of the CNC.

 

[ohplease!]

Yes, PBS is probably coming at some point. But, looking at everything else this company does, do you REALLY think that the company is going to get a "good" system? The only way that any PBS system will be good for the pilots is if the union has a lot of control over the software, and I would be willing to bet that the company will fight that tooth and nail.

As far the what was offered being "official", yes the company can call the NMB anytime it wants and give their "proposal" to the mediator for cinsideration. With the "movement" that they have made, it is unlikely that the mediator would even contact ALPA to tell them about it. That is from the chair of the CNC.

I'm not disputing anything you're saying. However, you need to go back and re-read what I've said about this subject before you start yapping about it and getting it wrong.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Time is working against the company, not us.

I also applaud our CNC for their work.

How is it that time is on the side of the pilots? What am I missing?

 

[PCL_128]

semantics AGAIN! I don't care what you choose to call it....ASA made an offer/supposal/proposal/what if/who dun'it/whatever....

Actually, NO, it is not just symantics. "Supposal" and "proposal" mean two entirely different things in legal circles (including the NMB). The fact that you don't understand that is a perfect demonstration of why you need to trust your CNC and MEC instead of attacking them and making crazy demands of them based on emotion rather than reasoning.

please tell me you are smart enough/reasonable enough/have common sense enough to realize ....had our CNC agreed to the terms being presented as a "what if?" scenario, ASA would have called the NMB and asked for a meeting and they would have offered it "officially" on the record.

No, I don't believe that's what would have transpired. If the CNC had shown willingness to accept the "supposal," I believe the management negotiators would have pulled the supposal from the table and come back with something slightly less appealing. That's what makes a supposal different from a bonified proposal: you can't pull a proposal from the table under Section 6 negotiations after it's already been made. If you do, then the NMB will view it as extremely bad faith negotiating practices. They would almost certainly be willing to extend a proffer of arbitration at that point. With a supposal, the company doesn't have to worry about that. They can submit and retract supposals at a whim without the NMB even knowing, let along caring, about it. Once a full proposal is made, the company is basically bound by it. If the CNC accepts it, then that's it. It goes to the MEC for a vote and then out to memrat. Not so with a supposal. They can, and it appears that the did, pull the offer right off the table. If this truly was a legitimate offer as you seem to think, then why would management pull it from the table so quickly? If this is legitimate and they really want a deal, then why not leave it on the table to allow the MEC and CNC to further consider it? Use your head. None of this makes any sense. It's all just posturing on the part of the company. Trust your MEC and CNC, and stop micromanaging them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If this truly was a legitimate offer as you seem to think, then why would management pull it from the table so quickly?

It didn't come off the table, it apparently showed up on the table at SkyWest. It is classic whipsaw. You don't want it, OK, lets see if they want it. SkyWest holdings is growing and fishing for the best deal they can get. Come here, fishy fishy fishy...

 

[atrdriver]

I also applaud our CNC for their work.

How is it that time is on the side of the pilots? What am I missing?

The company is obviously under some amount of pressure to get us a contract. They are wanting to bid on other flying, etc, and that is hard to do when you don't fully know what your costs are. I would imagine that JA is also putting pressure on BL to get this done. While we don't like it, we can go on working under our current PWA without much problem, which makes a lot more sense than agreeing to a substandard agreement just to "get it done."

 

[atrdriver]

It didn't come off the table, it apparently showed up on the table at SkyWest. It is classic whipsaw. You don't want it, OK, lets see if they want it. SkyWest holdings is growing and fishing for the best deal they can get. Come here, fishy fishy fishy...

What has been offered to Skywest was never offered to us. The company has not yet "offered" a 2% across the board raise, a 4:10 min day, COLA increases, etc.

 

[HoserASA]

I'm also sure that if you choose to be a P2P rep., you should relay the facts and not your twisted version of the "facts". If you don't have the facts as stated by the CNC guy's, you should get them. We should be getting unbiased, correct information FROM you not GIVING it TO you.

OhPlease, I have no twisted version of the facts. I emailed the MEC & Neg Comm Chair as I had not received any info about this offer, supposal, whatever you want to call it. John Rice will brief this tomorrow at the LEC meeting, so you'll have your opportunity to ask him there, your face to his face, and all the others face to face. Think you can handle that?

I was told the offer, proposal, supposal etc was inadequate, did not address our issues, had minimal increase for the CR2/ATR, and no cola for the CR7. Rigs were neutered to point of being useless. The company is trying to tie all these issues to PBS, which pilot polling indicates no one wants in lieu of our current method of bidding.

As for the SKYW offer, it may or may not be real. The MEC has not verified it's authentic as the document is not on any official letterhead with signatures. The MEC says if true, it is greater compensation than anything presented informally by the company, and scheduling issues include items already agreed to in our Section 13.

So, call me names all you want but I honestly was not informed of this so-called unofficial supposal. Please question the Neg Comm Chair tomorrow if you attend the meeting. P2Ps don't always get all the info out there, which has been a sore spot with me for the 9+ years I've been on the P2P Comm.

Hoser
P2P