is 40 to 45 too old to get hired at a major?

[densoo]

Airlines that require a four year degree are trying to avoid hiring "loosers".

What's the problem? People who go to college are uptight, those who don't are looser. No one wants loose pilots.

 

[waveflyer]

Dammit

..

 

[pilotyip]

Ragman did-
As for you and yip..... The joke is lost

See waht a coolege dergees, in fcat a copule of tehm, can do you for you. Geos rihgt oevr yoru haed

 

[waveflyer]

I happen to be a check airman at a large regional carrier and am privileged to work with some of the best pilots in the business. We take new hires who often meet only the minimum requirements to be hired, have never flown a jet, never seen an FMS, never flown for an airline, never flown in congested airspace, etc. Heck, there was a time we even had some new hires who had never been in actual IMC conditions.We take them and turn them into safe, competent airline pilots.

The abilities required to do this and deal with the associated stress and high workload on the flight deck can only be understood by those who do it.

Not a single one of them has the job because they kiss ass. They have it because they are good at what they do. Period.

A lot of us we're check airman in our previous life-
So I hear and agree with what DcA is saying, there is an element of playing the political game- there's no doubt about that- (and I like to think I was decent at playing it) without a doubt though- check airman experience can be good, and can be bad- best pilots are the best pilots though and that doesn't always mean CA. Plenty of really good pilots haven't gone that route

So here's a secret from the hiring side.
If your check airman experience has made you a better junior FO candidate- expect it to help get you hired at a major.
If you CA experience makes you think you're special for performing in a role that thousands before you have done (dozens on this website with your same experience, no doubt), well... Expect an airline to pass on that kind of a headache.
Keep your head and your defensiveness of what a check airman/ standards captain is in check my man. The pride is in being one of us, not convincing yourself you walk on water and are entitled to special treatment in any majors hiring process.

 

[wms]

I tried waiting it out and not get the degree. I changed my mind and now I'll be finished this summer with a quality BS from a great school. It's worth it and even if I don't get on with a major I'm glad I did it. I'm not just trying to check boxes but am genuinely interested in learning new things and it has been a great experience.

I now understand what the additional education adds to your knowledge base as well as gives you something to bring to the table when looking for another job.

 

[pilotyip]

I tried waiting it out and not get the degree. I changed my mind and now I'll be finished this summer with a quality BS from a great school. It's worth it and even if I don't get on with a major I'm glad I did it. I'm not just trying to check boxes but am genuinely interested in learning new things and it has been a great experience.

I now understand what the additional education adds to your knowledge base as well as gives you something to bring to the table when looking for another job.

Congrats, that is something to be proud of. But it has nothing to do with flying an airplane, and beauty of it is that SWA knowns it and does not base hiring decisions upon the checked box.

 

[wms]

I know a degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane specifically, but knowledge and study leads to better thought-process and decision-making. I've experienced this and can say I'm better in the cockpit for the learning I've done. Even when some of the classes were not aviation related, they involved critical thinking skills, and that's a plus.

Not to mention, all the rationalization about college being unnecessary won't get you a job. Accepting the fact that airlines want it and getting it done, will.

 

[waveflyer]

And there you have it wms

I agree 100%

We all know a lot of pilots got the paper and didn't learn much- or resented the work-

My degree helped my flying and my ability to do my job every day.

He knows this, but I couldn't disagree with yip more.

Btw- just bc SWA doesn't "require" a degree doesn't mean it's not part of the computer program that selects applicants for interviews.

 

[jonjuan]

I know a degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane specifically, but knowledge and study leads to better thought-process and decision-making. I've experienced this and can say I'm better in the cockpit for the learning I've done. Even when some of the classes were not aviation related, they involved critical thinking skills, and that's a plus.

Not to mention, all the rationalization about college being unnecessary won't get you a job. Accepting the fact that airlines want it and getting it done, will.

Bingo-case closed.

 

[wms]

USAirways, AA, and United don't require it, but you won't get through the filters without it.

 

[pilotyip]

Btw- just bc SWA doesn't "require" a degree doesn't mean it's not part of the computer program that selects applicants for interviews.

Yes and as per above, they get hired a SWA without it, and I bet they are just as good as the college degree guys.

Bingo-case closed.

You thunk?:laugh:

 

[jonjuan]

Yes and as per above, they get hired a SWA without it, and I bet they are just as good as the college degree guys.

You thunk?:laugh:

If what you're saying is true, they would be hired in much larger numbers than just 2-3/year.

 

[pilotyip]

If what you're saying is true, they would be hired in much larger numbers than just 2-3/year.

Not sure I agree with your numbers, but you might be right. Can someone confirm these? One of the last reports issued by Kit Darby in 2007, reported SWA hired about 7% non-degreed pilots. So if they hired 200 this year that would work out to about 14. I would also make a guess that that less than 7% of SWA's applicants are non-degreed, so it might even be an advantage to not have a degree.

 

[waveflyer]

That's some great logic there yip.
Brilliant.

93% have a degree and you argue that SWA wants you not to have one.
???

I "thunk" too- well said wms. Case closed.

And ps- I survey courses. Download iTunes university and lectures from YouTube.

Learning is learning and it's good for all of us to stay curious and sharp

 

[DCAA320]

so it might even be an advantage to not have a degree.

Lay off the juice bro.

 

[pilotyip]

That's some great logic there yip.
Brilliant.

93% have a degree and you argue that SWA wants you not to have one.

Not if you establish the estimation that probably 95% of the pilots looking for jobs have college degrees. That assumption would support the non-degreed pilot having an advantage at SWA. If someone has better numbers, please chime in.

As far as SWA not wanting you to have a degree is not the point. The point is SWA is smart enough to know it has no bearing on who the person is and upon their success in the cockpit.

Learning is learning and it's good for all of us to stay curious and sharp

Could not agree more, but learning takes place at many more places than college, but I guess that kind of learning doesn't carry much weight with many people. Well except some colleges that give credit for life experiences.

Lay off the juice bro.

Never is tastes too good, and sharing it with my ole squadron mates is what life is all about.

 

[waveflyer]

Sharing juice that tastes good?...with your squadron mates?... Is what life's about...??
Ok..,???
Miss the navy eh?
Freaky old man yip

 

[waveflyer]

As for the rest. You're making those numbers up, so how can it be argued.
We already gave you numbers -93% hired have degrees. Enough said.

There is intrinsic development as well. A degree doesn't guarantee it so I'm glad SWA considers some who have worked in themselves- but it will be something you'll have to explain- and unless you were developing yourself in some other worthwhile educational way- it's not going to be a good explanation--

Degrees don't fly airplanes- yip- but our job is more than just flying airplanes and I'd rather have educated next to me doing this job. Most non degree pilots I've flown with are a little rough around the edges for me. Not how I'd like us represented. Turns off the business travelers, don't interact well, don't manage and lead as well. They can fly. But so can monkeys. JMO and always exceptions

 

[FOAgain]

"Not if you establish the estimation that probably 95% of the pilots looking for jobs have college degrees. That assumption would support the non-degreed pilot having an advantage at SWA. If someone has better numbers, please chime in."

You do realize that the 5% are the top 5% of all non-degreed right? I really don't see how that gives the other 95% an advantage at any airline, including SW.

They will need to have some serious qualifications to be competitive. The days of the good ole buddy network are coming to an end. The online app services are taking care of that, and the decreased opportunities for lawsuits will keep them around.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

I'm 51 with 10,000TT, 1200TPIC, 3k jet, 4k tprop, 3 types, and a 4 year degree. Experience at the regionals and currently flying for a large fractional(12 years).

Thinking about starting the application process, would I have a reasonable chance at getting on with a major?

I hope so but... there are a LOT of frac guys with their apps out. I just hope the airlines don't have the same bias against 91 flying they had 12 years ago.
I haven't heard of any that were unsuccessful at the majors.

 

[pilotyip]

There is intrinsic development as well. A degree doesn't guarantee it so I'm glad SWA considers some who have worked in themselves- but it will be something you'll have to explain- and unless you were developing yourself in some other worthwhile educational way- it's not going to be a good explanation

We agree there are many ways to develop yourself, a college degree is only one of them. But the college only elitist crowd just doesn't see it that way.

BTW: Things are getting so upside down in this business that JUS is now recruiting for pilots with college degrees. Now not just any college degree, we could care less about a Mechanical Engineer from the University of Michigan. But a degree from Bumblebee State in Aviation Technology that meets the 1000 hour restricted ATP, that is the breakfast of champions.

 

[PlaneJohn]

Degrees don't fly airplanes- yip- but our job is more than just flying airplanes and I'd rather have educated next to me doing this job. Most non degree pilots I've flown with are a little rough around the edges for me. Not how I'd like us represented. Turns off the business travelers, don't interact well, don't manage and lead as well. They can fly. But so can monkeys. JMO and always exceptions[/QUOTE]


That's a pretty broad brush stroke sir; I'm going to have to take objection to your comment. I am a manager of a small corporate flight department and I do not possess a degree, yet I report directly to the CEO of our business. I share a hangar with a fortune 50 flight department whose Director of Aviation also lacks a degree. Several operations that I have interactions with in my city have non degreed managers and pilots heading up their respective operations, be they 135 or large international corporate flight departments. The commonality they have is they all have interactions, report to, and serve business leaders and executives, that in all likely hood far surpass your apex business travelers that you are worried your non educated pilots may upset. Many fractional operations employ pilots and managers that lack the degree and all of them have more time and interaction in front of business personnel than an airline pilot behind a staff of flight attendants and a closed cockpit door.

Flown with both types of pilots and have not really noticed any difference in both their skill set as a pilot or the decorum they exhibit in front of passengers. Seen the bad on both sides, but the one that worries me most is the pilot that somehow thinks his degree infers intelligence.

I'm curious, when airline pilots are assigned as crew, how do you distinguish the college educated pilot from the one without the degree? Does he have a 5th stripe on his jacket for an undergrad? Let's break this down further, do you notice a difference in performance from the guy with a GPA of 2.0 and say magna cum laude, or how about a major in political science vs an MBA? Surely the MBA pilot will represent your airline amongst those business pax much better than the pilot with a degree in political science. I think I'd be concerned more with how the pilot did in his last training event than whether or not he has a degree.

The non-educated pilot is the minority with the majors and legacies, as logic would serve, it must be you educated pilots that keep providing the crappy customer service and miserable travel experience that keeps us uneducated corporate guys gainfully employed with the CEO in back interacting productively with other executives.

Must feel good to be that educated chimp among all the monkeys.

 

[ragman]

I agree with Plane John but this thread started with a question by someone who wants to get on with a major. Putting the intrinsic value of a degree aside, it's just a fact that lack of a degree will make it or more likely that your resume/application will be placed on the do not interview pile with many of the majors. If getting hired by a major is your goal, it's definitely better to have a degree.

 

[PlaneJohn]

I agree with Plane John but this thread started with a question by someone who wants to get on with a major. Putting the intrinsic value of a degree aside, it's just a fact that lack of a degree will make it or more likely that your resume/application will be placed on the do not interview pile with many of the majors. If getting hired by a major is your goal, it's definitely better to have a degree.

Very True, I too was interested in the original content of the thread an what kind of success the 40+ year old pilot was having in pursuit of an airline career. I think a college education is an outstanding enhancement to ones repertoire , I just felt the need to reply to a general statement that pilots lacking the degree are somehow inferior in both their leadership abilities and skills other than flying the plane. I have no doubt that the lack of one will only inhibit ones pursuit of a career with a major, which is sad. I thought HR always strives for diversification in the work force, so I am curious why it matters so much at the majors and not so much at regional, corporate, and fractional operations? The job is essentially the same.

 

[wms]

There is no pile, it's all computerized. If you do not check the degree box, your name won't even pop up because of the selection filters HR uses. Someday that may change, but the degree is a necessity now.

 

[pilotyip]

I agree with Plane John but this thread started with a question by someone who wants to get on with a major. Putting the intrinsic value of a degree aside, it's just a fact that lack of a degree will make it or more likely that your resume/application will be placed on the do not interview pile with many of the majors. If getting hired by a major is your goal, it's definitely better to have a degree.

That is very true and the whole thing about the college degree thing started because a 40+ pilpto without a college degree posted that he had been hired by SWA. I complemented SWA on having a very savvy HR department that looked at the "whole person" and noy just at a box that was checked. This lead to wavy and his/her ilk posting their feeling about the stink of the non-college degreed person being in the same room with him/her.

Very True, I too was interested in the original content of the thread an what kind of success the 40+ year old pilot was having in pursuit of an airline career. I think a college education is an outstanding enhancement to ones repertoire , I just felt the need to reply to a general statement that pilots lacking the degree are somehow inferior in both their leadership abilities and skills other than flying the plane. I have no doubt that the lack of one will only inhibit ones pursuit of a career with a major, which is sad. I thought HR always strives for diversification in the work force, so I am curious why it matters so much at the majors and not so much at regional, corporate, and fractional operations? The job is essentially the same.

But the degree is not needed until the last step into a major. It can be done on the side while building time. There is no reason to go $100K into debt to get a degree that will not be needed until you have 5,000-6,000 hours and you are 30 years old. I have seen too many pilots succeed this way

 

[inline]

As for the rest. You're making those numbers up, so how can it be argued.
We already gave you numbers -93% hired have degrees. Enough said.

There is intrinsic development as well. A degree doesn't guarantee it so I'm glad SWA considers some who have worked in themselves- but it will be something you'll have to explain- and unless you were developing yourself in some other worthwhile educational way- it's not going to be a good explanation--

Degrees don't fly airplanes- yip- but our job is more than just flying airplanes and I'd rather have educated next to me doing this job. Most non degree pilots I've flown with are a little rough around the edges for me. Not how I'd like us represented. Turns off the business travelers, don't interact well, don't manage and lead as well. They can fly. But so can monkeys. JMO and always exceptions

You are so full of it. That's the mentality of the HR morons who make hiring decisions at the airlines......better to hire a pilot with a degree in English than hire a pilot who also earned an A&P certificate at a wait for it..............community college. The horror of it all.

 

[wms]

Complain all you want, the HR "morons" set the standards. Meet the standards and get called, don't meet the standards and don't even get noticed. It's not an argument of whether a degree is relevant but that you need it to get hired. The situation will change, but right now it is what it is.

 

[laker4284]

Age hasn't been an issue for over 20 years. Where you tapped out at 30 in'77, now pilots are ROUTINELY hired in their 40s or even 50s. In fact, companies essentially MUST hire 50+ to avoid any age discrimination issues. Age falls into the same category as gender and race. So if you've got the quals 40 is a no-brainer and 50 might even be a bonus. APPLY. With the number of pilots that are retiring this in one of those periodic windows of great opportunity.

 

[waveflyer]

You are so full of it. That's the mentality of the HR morons who make hiring decisions at the airlines......better to hire a pilot with a degree in English than hire a pilot who also earned an A&P certificate at a wait for it..............community college. The horror of it all.

Is this about you and your ego? That ^^^ your story?

Haha- look man- I actually do value the English major over the A&P. what are you gonna do? Climb into the tail with a wrench inflight if we go Sioux city? I'd rather have the diverse pilot.
That's just me.

And my opinion is worth less than nothing. Bottom line is if you're going to invest in this career, why would you put yourself at such a disadvantage when 90%_+ at every airline have degrees?

There are so many ways to get it done now, it's full blown stupid not to have one as an airline pilot. (And I know many good pilots, who fit that bill and it's worked out. Many more who are still slaving away at regionals)