is 40 to 45 too old to get hired at a major?

[SWA Bubba]

How is that mutually exclusive?

Herb had a law degree

GK and MVdV have MBAs

And 93%+ of Swapa pilots have undergrad degrees
15% of us graduate level

Glad you're so "up" on degrees, Wave--in that case, perhaps you should be pushing for Southwest to hire more former military pilots then. Essentially 100% of them have undergrad degrees (which, assuming just over 50% civilian trained here, means approx. 15% of our civilian-trained guys do NOT have undergrad degrees). Plus, I'd bet that of the 15% of us with graduate level degrees, the overwhelming majority are from the military ranks, since Masters degrees are encouraged and paid for military officers as professional growth and development.

Sorry, man... just yankin' your chain! I couldn't resist. :beer:

Bubba

 

[flyboyike]

But you ain't gonna get educated in college anymore; it's for indoctrination now.

I think many people forget that education is a two-way street. You can get a great education at a community college if you put in the effort just as easily as a lousy one at Harvard if you just put in the bare minimum.

 

[waveflyer]

Glad you're so "up" on degrees, Wave--in that case, perhaps you should be pushing for Southwest to hire more former military pilots then. Essentially 100% of them have undergrad degrees (which, assuming just over 50% civilian trained here, means approx. 15% of our civilian-trained guys do NOT have undergrad degrees). Plus, I'd bet that of the 15% of us with graduate level degrees, the overwhelming majority are from the military ranks, since Masters degrees are encouraged and paid for military officers as professional growth and development.

Sorry, man... just yankin' your chain! I couldn't resist. :beer:

Bubba

You're right. Maybe yip should be making his no degree argument to some generals!

And I would .... if it weren't for the vast numbers of mil who suck factor


Hey man, I've never argued for anyone rough around the edges. That's the problem in that mil-civ debate. Civilians know we have that element that sucks. Mil guys will recommend anyone.

Not everyone without a degree fits that rough part, so I'm glad we'll interview those without, but many do.

On a thread that's asking interview advice - the ONLY GOOD ADVICE concerning whether to get a degree or not is to get one. There's so many ways to get it done now the excuse factor gets boiled down to lazy and not interested which is pretty hard to explain in an interview.

Let me ask- who here without a degree has a good argument for not getting it?

 

[pilotyip]

There's so many ways to get it done now the excuse factor gets boiled down to lazy and not interested which is pretty hard to explain in an interview.

Right , all those high school to flight school Army CWO's, who flew two tours in combat rescue, or that sailor who spend two years in Nuclear Power plant operator's school after high school and 4 years on a submarine operating a reactor, or my brother in law who is a succssful small business man in the auto repair busienss after two years of auto mechanic training is as lazy as they come. None of these have proved anything compared to getting an online degree in Gender Studies from Bumble Bee State. The college degree the clear indicator of a superior person, nonthing else counts

 

[waveflyer]

There's yip- all hyperbolic again...

 

[pilotyip]

There's yip- all hyperbolic again...

as opposed to you who has worked so much harder than anyone else and enjoys the right to look down on anyone without a degree who is not as good a you. Thank goodness you are not in the HR dept at SWA.

 

[inline]

as opposed to you who has worked so much harder than anyone else and enjoys the right to look down on anyone without a degree who is not as good a you. Thank goodness you are not in the HR dept at SWA.

Hear Hear

 

[learflyer]

as opposed to you who has worked so much harder than anyone else and enjoys the right to look down on anyone without a degree who is not as good a you. Thank goodness you are not in the HR dept at SWA.

He's just pissed that he owes Sallie Mae for life. While the rest of us are aggressively saving for the future.

My favorite ironic situation is a finance major who is 100k in debt from a finance undergrad degree. :laugh:

 

[waveflyer]

I do?

Coulda swore I paid those off
And my house
And our moms

Wow- didn't know my education had so little value... Oh wait
$$$


I'm the wrong example for you guys

I hope my doctor has a degree too- doesn't make him a better person. Just means there are careers out there where the participants ought to be educated

 

[Angus Khan]

My gosh, 40!? At American you'll be so young you'll stand out like you lobsters growing from your head. Welcome AAAAboard.

 

[pilotyip]

Just means there are careers out there where the participants ought to be educated

And airline pilot is not one of them. Nor does the on-line degree from Bumblebee State in Gender Studies provide future employment opportunities like that of a graduate from a top medical school. A college degree ranges from nearly worthless to extremely valuable. All college degrees cannot be lumped into one category as a representation of knowledge gained. Unless of course you are checking box on an airline application.

 

[waveflyer]

Well, I disagree

So why don't you answer Bubba's question

Military requires degrees...

 

[HA25]

I do?

Coulda swore I paid those off
And my house
And our moms

Wow- didn't know my education had so little value... Oh wait
$$$


I'm the wrong example for you guys

I hope my doctor has a degree too- doesn't make him a better person. Just means there are careers out there where the participants ought to be educated

Wave, lets be honest, Yip has been on this board the better part of a decade trying to dumb down pilots and their expectations.. whether actively or passively he's been working for the airline managers to create a lower caliber pilot who costs less to operate and works harder.. the guy whos' so excited to be an airline pilot, he doesn't care what he makes on his W2.. that's been Yip for as long as I can remember.

Shoot... now I might get that famous Yip PM that takes up two pages and explains how he's a retired Navy O6 and could have been the DO at Delta, but chose instead to fly Falcon 20's at Grandeair..

 

[waveflyer]

Oh I've gotten those PMs my man!

 

[pilotyip]

Wave, lets be honest, Yip has been on this board the better part of a decade trying to dumb down pilots and their expectations.. whether actively or passively he's been working for the airline managers to create a lower caliber pilot who costs less to operate and works harder.. the guy whos' so excited to be an airline pilot, he doesn't care what he makes on his W2.. that's been Yip for as long as I can remember.

Shoot... now I might get that famous Yip PM that takes up two pages and explains how he's a retired Navy O6 and could have been the DO at Delta, but chose instead to fly Falcon 20's at Grandeair..

Yep that is me, single handedly destroyed the airline industry. At least I don't hide behind a screen name. From what I have seen here pilots don't need much help dumbing down. I still applaud SWA for not being hung up on this college degree thing like many of the up tight college educated people I have seen. BTW Where did you get this Grandscare stuff?

 

[HA25]

BTW Where did you get this Grandscare stuff?

you fly for one of those DA20 bottom feeders don't you? I forget which one..

 

[waveflyer]

Yip, you seem like a good guy-
But HA has a point-

From your signature to this college degree thing that really does seem to upset you if people disagree, your message is about lowering expectations and the bar for pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

you fly for one of those DA20 bottom feeders don't you? I forget which one..

Yep, The last place I thought I would ever end my career was at a Non-Sked flying out of KYIP, but life takes many turns that are beyond your control. I literally found this job in a garbage can and in your mid-50's you don't turn many jobs down. JUS what used to be the best of the bottom feeders, still a pretty good bottom feeder but no QOL. However pilots have to go someplace to get the resume fluff to move to the next step. This is good place to get your start. All DA-120 training is done under 121, including Appendix H LOFTS, we have an active ASAP program, a pilot policy handbook that reads much like a contract. Plus our pay starts at $34K as a DA-20 F/O for a 500 TT pilot. I never made it to the major show, but I get a sense of satisfaction in the role I play in giving these kids a solid start in their career and then watch them move on DAL, JB, SWA, Atlas, NJ, UPS, FedEx,

BTW: Grandscare is the fr8dawg insider name for Grand Air out of KTOL, crashed five DA-20's before they killed anyone. The only air Carrier in the US history to crash two airplanes within 3 hours in April of 2003.

 

[HA25]

I flew with a lot of former Grandscare pilots at Swift, including their DO and two CP's right after the 9/11 downturn and losing my job opportunity at AA.. I know all about them and I know all about wondering the wasteland of crap jobs ..

I never once accepted that I had to fly because I liked to, and not for money or respect tho... Never, and it's sad that you've given up and decided to be the mouthpiece for managers who want minimum wage pilots to grease the wheel of their bottom feeder operations. As you know from personal experience, the DAL and Fedex jobs are the minority of jobs... and not everyone setting out in this career with get them... so one has to make the most of their CURRENT employment and demand respect there, because it might be their last stop before retirement.

 

[waveflyer]

I anyone's still lurking on the actual thread- it's been answered many times- there are usually more 40-something's than 30 something's. And do the math- a 45 year old has 20 years! That's plenty of time to enjoy a major airline experience esp as contracts get better and our unions start fighting for the bottom of the list.

 

[waveflyer]

So back to our trolling.

Yip. Answer Bubba's question about military pilots and a degree.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforcejoin/ss/afpilot_2.htm
How to Become an Air Force Pilot
Education

You will need at least a bachelor’s degree, earned at either a civilian college or university or at the Air Force Academy outside Colorado Springs, Colo.
When choosing your degree program, keep in mind that the Air Force prefers "scientific" degrees, such as aerospace engineering, physics, computer science, chemestry, etc. You will also need to have a high college GPA, generally 3.4 or above, to be competitive.

Mil prefers science degree, but simply requires a degree of any kind.

How does that fit into your philos on the degree yip?

 

[waveflyer]

https://www.navy.com/careers/aviation/naval-aviators.html
"Qualifications
To be a Navy Pilot or NFO candidate, you must have a bachelor?s degree from a four-year college or university."

The ONLY qualification for naval aviator is a 4 year degree^^^
Other factors for sure- but set in stone, no waivers- get a degree

 

[pilotyip]

https://www.navy.com/careers/aviation/naval-aviators.html
"Qualifications
To be a Navy Pilot or NFO candidate, you must have a bachelor?s degree from a four-year college or university."

The ONLY qualification for naval aviator is a 4 year degree^^^
Other factors for sure- but set in stone, no waivers- get a degree

Because when you enter the Navy for a commission with an O in front of it you are coming in for a management and leadership position. You are being prepared for department head duties, staff duties and possible squadron command. You will specialize in a warfare area, such as flying, submarines or driving boats. When a officer who is a pilot or NFO is evaluated in their position, there is only one box for airman-ship, there are 20 other boxes on organizational skills, leadership, written communication, etc. It requires a college degree, because it is not about flying. It is about management and leadership.

If you join the Army as a Warrant Officer, you are a pilot skilled equipment operator and are not required to have a college degree until you have been in for about 10 years and become a senior Commissioned Warrant Officer.

When the military is hard up for pilots like Vietnam, they drop the college degree thing. I flew with many non-degreed pilots, including my PPC, who I consider one of the finest people and pilots I ever flew with. Why because it has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

Robert Lovett, WWII Asst Sec of War for Air, may have saved the US in WWII. He showed we needed quantity, not quality. We will need 100K pilots per year, we will not get that many physically qualified college educated pilots. He said the college was not needed to fly an airplane, so he devised a test to identify those traits and knowledge levels needed to be successful in pilot training. He found that many college educated people could not pass this test, but many high school graduates could. These 19 year old pilots proved their worth all over the globe, flying equipment under conditions that would test almost all of us on this board.

 

[waveflyer]

You're confusing what's possible, with what's good and with what's qualified and preferred.
Major airlines each have 10,000+ applicants onboard-
So reverse the question. Why would they take a pilot without a degree when all things being equal they can choose a pilot with one?

Are you really trying to say that leadership, management ability, and communication skills as well as some aptitude in a classroom environment isn't applicable in our career??

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Are you really trying to say that leadership, management ability, and communication skills as well as some aptitude in a classroom environment isn't applicable in our career??

Are you saying that pilots from most carriers in other countries that hire their pilots and train them under their own academy formats lack these qualities???

 

[HA25]

Are you saying that pilots from most carriers in other countries that hire their pilots and train them under their own academy formats lack these qualities???

those pilots are vetted and put thru an academic instruction that far exceeds the typical college degree academic requirements in the US, except for the better tier schools or military academies. There is a washout rate, and there is a lot of competitive testing and evaluation. Apple's and Oranges.... IT's as if they DO have a college degree. Certainly not like comparing it to someone who's never gone to college in the US and got their licenses and ratings at the local FBO...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

those pilots are vetted and put thru an academic instruction that far exceeds the typical college degree academic requirements in the US,.

You and I are in agreement then, the requirement of a degree In dentistry for example, as a requirement for a pilot job is just moronic! Don't get me wrong I'm all for higher education, but something that has to do with our career, not just a degree in anything as long as you have a degree......, that is just plain stupid.

 

[HA25]

You and I are in agreement then, the requirement of a degree In dentistry for example, as a requirement for a pilot job is just moronic!

we are, but until we have ab-initio programs here that more resemble the military and less resemble a "have cash, we'll get it done" system, we'll just have to use the college degree as a sign of accomplishment.

You know as well as I know, anyone who can fog a mirror can pass FAA writtens ...

 

[Dumb Pilot]

we are, but until we have ab-initio programs here that more resemble the military and less resemble a "have cash, we'll get it done" system, we'll just have to use the college degree as a sign of accomplishment.

You know as well as I know, anyone who can fog a mirror can pass FAA writtens ...

A degree in something that has to do with our career, yes! A degree for as a "ticking of the box" item? Stupid

 

[HA25]

A degree in something that has to do with our career, yes! A degree for as a "ticking of the box" item? Stupid

or worse yet, no degree... even more stupid (under our current very non-competitive pilot training system).

And don't tell me about ERAU and Aeronautics Degrees being selective. Some of the biggest slackers I know got a BS in Aviation there with the help of a Captain daddy and $100K in tuition... I've got an actual Aerospace Engineering degree from a non-aviation california university that was far more difficult to obtain than an "Aviation" Degree... that's like Junior College.

I think, just as with the US Military, a degree in science, engineering or math shows a lot more capable person, especially in the critical areas of how and why planes fly; and therefore should be preferred.