Gary Kelly Ain't Waitin' for the DOJ!!

[SWA/FO]

Most SWA guys are realistic that the staple is long dead

Not this SWA guy....

 

[Wesb737fo]

I wouldn't count on that. I think a staple is the only offer trannies are gonna get. Or no deal.

Jumpseated on AirTran again this week and the two pilots couldn't have been nicer. I could definitely tell that they were concerned that the deal would fall through, and both of them said they would gladly take a staple to get on the SWA list. The CA seemed even more willing to take a staple than the FO since he was turned down by SWA. FO has had his stuff in for years at SWA, but never got the call. Great guys, nonetheless.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........yawn.....

 

[roughneck]

but really the only one up SWA has on AT is a better contract and hourly pay.

You forgot about the 221 aircraft on order. You forgot about the 2000 retirements that are coming in the next 15 years. You forgot about the best domestic route structure in the entire industry allowing for more growth opportunities. You forgot about the best balance sheet in the industry. You forgot about the job security that comes with a 40 year old company that has never furloughed. You attempted to minimize the massive contractual gains. You forgot about the -800's and ETOPS operations that are coming. We bring everything to the table, AAI brings virtually nothing.

All of these items will be front and center if they decide to combine the operations and this thing goes to arbitration.

AAI presentation to the abitrator will go something like this. 1. We have 32 gates in Atlanta. 2. Did we mention our gates in Atlanta. 3. Please don't forget about our gates in Atlanta.

 

[Ty Webb]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........yawn.....

Uh-huh. :laugh:

 

[madjack]

This acquisition/merger whatever you want to call it will be successful (in my eyes which means NOTHING i realize) only if the SWA/AAI pilots can share the risk equitably... as a 10 year FO, if 800 AAI CPs jump ahead of me, I am assuming a great deal of risk that SWA/AAI will grow. The AAI CPs may lose seniority if they become (junior) SWA CPS but they will be compensated with a rather large raise and better financial future...SWA FOs (yes me) will gain nothing...of course the POTENTIAL exist that the combined company will prosper and grow explosively (salving most SLI wounds as in the Morris staple) but the SWA FOs, who like the AAI pilots: (1) DID NOT AKS FOR THIS ACQUISITION and (2) are also protected by M/B, assume ALL the risk...

For the sake of argument: I feel that the AAI pilots should share the risk of this merger, the question is how?? IF (a big unknown, impossible to predict IF) AAI CPS were to become SWA FOs and not lose any career earning potential would they be satisfied to accept some of the risk of growth and potentially far greater earning potential at SWA?? Would a senior SWA FO accept CP pay in lieu of the seat to ameliate the AAI pilots (I know I would)

One final point, and this is not an accusation just an observation...AAI CPs are a young group and have the luxury of MORE time to upgrade and make the big$$.. SWAPA is an older group and any merger/acquisition that results in a loss of seniority can mean that many current SWA FOs may never see upgrade...

I accept the fact I have no control of my future, if I should have to pull gear for a SWA CP (whose AAI DOH was after my DOH at SWA), I will not blame him, I will congratulate his good fortune and make the most of our trip (hey its a boring job made worse by bad attitudes)...but I am SURE I do not speak for the entire SWA pilot group (ESPECIALLY THE JUNIOR FOs)!!

 

[GuppyWN]

AAI presentation to the abitrator will go something like this. 1. We have 32 gates in Atlanta. 2. Did we mention our gates in Atlanta. 3. Please don't forget about our gates in Atlanta.

And Flint, MI. I still laugh when I think about that video.

Gup

 

[ivauir]

The "Golden Rule" would dictate that this be done fairly and that everyone goes forward.

That is right: fair.

"Fair" to everyone. Not just YOU.

"Fair" protects career expectations. If you actually READ arbitrator's decisions you'll see that this means more than just seats.

"Fair" recognizes the career altering windfall you realize if and when you get our contract.

"Fair"is a two way street. It does NOT mean you get your seniority AND our contract.

Reading kwick, karma, ty and others I have lost any hope of this going well. My only hope is that Gary has a plan to protect our company from your unrealistic expectations and militant attitude.

 

[SWA/FO]

Reading kwick, karma, ty and others I have lost any hope of this going well. My only hope is that Gary has a plan to protect our company from your unrealistic expectations and militant attitude.

Yeah, I just hope Gary pays them the 32 million break-up fee and we go our seperate ways.

 

[Ty Webb]

Reading kwick, karma, ty and others I have lost any hope of this going well. My only hope is that Gary has a plan to protect our company from your unrealistic expectations and militant attitude.

You guys started this off by talking about staples or asset sales, and you think we're the militant ones?

Thankfully, the two merger committees are handling this, not us, and hopefully they can come up with something we can all live with, or at least most of us, myself included.

 

[ASADFW7]

There is a reason SWA group is older. It takes longer to get hired there and it is more competitive. I am sure pilots have interviewed multiple times at Airtran to get hired, it just is not as common. This is not a statement for SLI discussion, just an observation.

 

[Beechdriver32]

That there is the rub. Check out the mins required for both. I'd bet there are quite a few AAI FOs the don't meet the mins to even apply to SWA, but they expect relative senority?

I believe 1000 TURBINE PIC to apply at SWA vs 500 PIC at AAI. And a type rating to start class.

I guess this is a non issue.

 

[dicko]

That there is the rub. Check out the mins required for both. I'd bet there are quite a few AAI FOs the don't meet the mins to even apply to SWA, but they expect relative senority?

I believe 1000 TURBINE PIC to apply at SWA vs 500 PIC at AAI. And a type rating to start class.

I guess this is a non issue.

You're wrong about the 1000 Turbine PIC and you're probably right about the 737 type.

AirTran payed for mine

 

[Beechdriver32]

You see Dicko, that's the problem. You really don't know the facts and spew what you believe, not believing the truth.

Look it up yourself at http://www.southwest.com/html/about-southwest/careers/positions/pilots.html

I'll post the highlights to help you out.

Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3 (as defined below) is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. NO other time is counted


As a side, Dicko, I know you're a CAPT now, but curious if you met the mins at SWA when you were hired at AAI? Not that it matters much, just curious.

 

[jonjuan]

There is a reason SWA group is older. It takes longer to get hired there and it is more competitive. I am sure pilots have interviewed multiple times at Airtran to get hired, it just is not as common. This is not a statement for SLI discussion, just an observation.

And the mins at vorgin america are 1,000 TPIC and 5,000 total which is more than at southwest. Should they get higher relative seniority in case of a merger?

 

[dicko]

You see Dicko, that's the problem. You really don't know the facts and spew what you believe, not believing the truth.

Look it up yourself at http://www.southwest.com/html/about-southwest/careers/positions/pilots.html

I'll post the highlights to help you out.

Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3 (as defined below) is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. NO other time is counted


As a side, Dicko, I know you're a CAPT now, but curious if you met the mins at SWA when you were hired at AAI? Not that it matters much, just curious.

I'll be happy to answer your question. I think I probably added to some confusion. My fault.

I was talking about AirTran FO's having 1000 121 TPIC. The vast majority did when they were hired (since 2002).

You are absolutely correct about the required minimums for both airlines.

Yes, I had over 1000 121 TPIC when I was hired and met all of the SWA mins. No 737 type obviously.

I was told by both AirTran pilot HR and friends who were writing me letters of rec. that 1000TPIC was the minimum to get your foot in the door. The published mins were the same then as they are now. I'm sure you know that minimum means minimum. Not competitive.

We are about the same seniority. The results will be interesting. I say this with no acrimony

Cheers

 

[jball2]

If Airtran bought VA would you give them relative? The AAI folks in here have said multiple times that VA doesn't count. Right back at ya!

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Ty Webb]

Be careful about the "hiring minimums" argument. Most of the pilots hired by AirTran had experience that vastly exceeded the minimums.

You might find that, while SWA's "minimums" were higher, that the average AirTran hire actually had more flight time, especially if SWA hired more fighter types and corporate guys, while AirTran hired a bunch of Delta retirees and legacy furloughees.

 

[jonjuan]

If Airtran bought VA would you give them relative? The AAI folks in here have said multiple times that VA doesn't count. Right back at ya!

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

VAs still a start up and no where nears being profitable. If they were a profitable entity with desired assets and gk felt they needed them to grow when he felt he couldn't otherwise, then yes, all wn CAs 93 and senior go first then relative to the bottom. Absolutely. The more this system gains traction, the easier the arbitrators job will be. After the SLI remember, Happiness is a personal choice.

 

[jonjuan]

Be careful about the "hiring minimums" argument. Most of the pilots hired by AirTran had experience that vastly exceeded the minimums.

You might find that, while SWA's "minimums" were higher, that the average AirTran hire actually had more flight time, especially if SWA hired more fighter types and corporate guys, while AirTran hired a bunch of Delta retirees and legacy furloughees.

Wow-great point. Let's hope for their sake the arbit won't ask for deets on actual hiring times/backgrounds. It's the law of unintended consequences.

 

[Kharma Police]

If Airtran bought VA would you give them relative? The AAI folks in here have said multiple times that VA doesn't count. Right back at ya!

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

I can't comment on hypotheticals, just history. We were going to offer Midwest relative seniority. Looking at Southwest's history, you were going to offer F9 a staple.