FLOPS Strike ballots are being sent out !!!

[o2bflyn]

It's hard because it doesn't make sense. Let's see: Cause the company to bleed dry because of your silly stike action. Yes, the very company -or source- that you want your increased salary to come from. So then after the bleeding, there's nothing. No increase, not even your former "low" salary.
Yeah, that makes fu(kin' sense....

Are you sure you know anything about business?

If the company is intelligent enough, they wont bleed dry from chartering out. They will realize the best course of action is to come to an agreement with the union BEFORE the cash runs out.

In my personal opinion, that is why NJA farmed out so much charter in 2004. They wanted to dwindle their cash reserve to improve their negotiating stance, but they also wanted to see what their capacity would be if/when the pilots went on strike. They knew how long they could last....then they decided to come to an agreement that kept them from having to go bankrupt because of a strike. It was good business and it worked out pretty well for both parties.

 

[Ben Dover FLOPS]

It's hard because it doesn't make sense. Let's see: Cause the company to bleed dry because of your silly stike action. Yes, the very company -or source- that you want your increased salary to come from. So then after the bleeding, there's nothing. No increase, not even your former "low" salary.
Yeah, that makes fu(kin' sense....

You fool! Nobody WANTS to strike! At some points it is absolutely necessary and the only way to achieve fair working conditions for good people. If we are forced to strike, we will. and it will be with the full force of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, not to mention other labor groups.

The alternative is to lie down and take it from the company, just as you do, Scumza, every day. I wonder: do you ever get used to that kind of treatment? What do your wife and kids think of you?

 

[skanza]

You fool! Nobody WANTS to strike! At some points it is absolutely necessary and the only way to achieve fair working conditions for good people. If we are forced to strike, we will. and it will be with the full force of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, not to mention other labor groups.

The alternative is to lie down and take it from the company, just as you do, Scumza, every day. I wonder: do you ever get used to that kind of treatment? What do your wife and kids think of you?

At what point is it absolutely necessary? Sure the 401k thing sucks, there's supposedly a %40 deficiency in pay. But what about the offers presented? The pay increase across the board, the flexible schedules, the 7X7 duty time, the job security? What about the improved meal and lodging changes that have taken place? Do these all mean nothing? Are you that greedy? You know the 401k applies to all employees, not just us. You act as if we're targeted with it. Plus, has anybody taken a pay cut? Don't tell me things like the 401k thing and lack of a raise recently equal that. I'm asking if anyone is being paid a lower salary than they agreed to when hired. This is the way you're treating the whole situation.

Oh, and the wife and kids thing, waaaayyy off. As if you know me anyway.

 

[dime line]

At what point is it absolutely necessary? Sure the 401k thing sucks, there's supposedly What hole are you in a %40 deficiency in pay. But what about the offers presented? The pay increase across the board, the flexible schedules, the 7X7 duty time, the job security? What about the improved meal and lodging changes Oh ok you mean the improved lodging that we use to have that have taken place? Do these all mean nothing? Are you that greedy? Yes You know the 401k applies to all employees, not just us. Agreed You act as if we're targeted with it. Plus, has anybody taken a pay cut? . Ummm Yes Don't tell me things like the 401k thing and lack of a raise recently equal that. How do they not ahole I'm asking if anyone is being paid a lower salary than they agreed to when hired. This is the way you're treating the whole situation.

Oh, and the wife and kids thing, waaaayyy off. As if you know me anyway.

Your such a moron,

 

[William Holiday]

Hey Skanza did you apply at F$H, or some other like minded firm, or you working contract for whoever. Your the only consistant poster of your ilk left.

 

[1folinepilot]

At what point is it absolutely necessary? Sure the 401k thing sucks, there's supposedly a %40 deficiency in pay. But what about the offers presented? The pay increase across the board, the flexible schedules, the 7X7 duty time, the job security? What about the improved meal and lodging changes that have taken place? Do these all mean nothing? Are you that greedy? You know the 401k applies to all employees, not just us. You act as if we're targeted with it. Plus, has anybody taken a pay cut? Don't tell me things like the 401k thing and lack of a raise recently equal that. I'm asking if anyone is being paid a lower salary than they agreed to when hired. This is the way you're treating the whole situation.

Oh, and the wife and kids thing, waaaayyy off. As if you know me anyway.

YES!!!! A vast majority of the pilots that came over from Travel Air had their salary "Adjusted for theoretical aircraft deliveries and upgrade dates" thus loosing thousands of dollars of wages as management pushed back upgrade and aniversary dates on positions that were rightfully earned and flown. All the pilots had to endure the "slide to parity" or go back to year one for upgrades. THIS WAS A DIRECT CUT IN SALARY!!!!!

To continue with the cut list, All non-SFO employees had their pay cut below "industry standard per Kenn Ricci" to fund the SFO program at no cost to the company, All have had their benifit costs drastically increased and level of coverage decreased, All have lost their 401K match, a large group of the pilots have been capped and denied vacation thus loosing earned vacation hours, quality of crew food has decreased to the point of being inedible, the pilots have lost paid parking at their home domicile, CLE pilots lost their CLE domicile pay, Shall I continue with the list?

Post the company's offer for us to review Skanza as their glee about raises and schedules are meaningless without solid SCOPE protection.

 

[fracjack]

YES!!!! A vast majority of the pilots that came over from Travel Air had their salary "Adjusted for theoretical aircraft deliveries and upgrade dates" thus loosing thousands of dollars of wages as management pushed back upgrade and aniversary dates on positions that were rightfully earned and flown. All the pilots had to endure the "slide to parity" or go back to year one for upgrades. THIS WAS A DIRECT CUT IN SALARY!!!!!

100 percent true statement and a huge increase in retraining costs

 

[Myster79]

Guys ignore Skanza, he is a nobody. Why let a a scumbag scab anger you? They lost the fight, they had the chance to make it right and they decided against the right action. There would be no strike vote if the company would have done the right thing over 3 years ago. Hell, there would be no union. They chose this road and now they will have to live with the consequences. Skanza and his lackey's don't deserve a response from us.

 

[LarryinTN]

The charter pilot in question would not be working for FLOPS rather he/she would be working for his/her charter company.

The theory is pretty simple. Follow the money.

If the work is being done for the struck company then it's struck work. i.e. if the customer is paying the struck company then the struck company is hiring an outside contractor to preform the work then it's struck work.

If the customer is taking money that he otherwise would have paid to the struck company and paying it to another company for the same service then it is not struck work.

Look at the recent Amerijet strike. Many non-Amerijet pilots refused charters for Amerijet because they would have been struck work. Cargo crews were checking their cargo for signs that Amerijet cargo had been loaded on their airplanes and, if found, having it removed.

 

[SilverSurfer]

What Planet Do You Live On

At what point is it absolutely necessary? Sure the 401k thing sucks, there's supposedly a %40 deficiency in pay. But what about the offers presented? The pay increase across the board, the flexible schedules, the 7X7 duty time, the job security? What about the improved meal and lodging changes that have taken place? Do these all mean nothing? Are you that greedy? You know the 401k applies to all employees, not just us. You act as if we're targeted with it. Plus, has anybody taken a pay cut? Don't tell me things like the 401k thing and lack of a raise recently equal that. I'm asking if anyone is being paid a lower salary than they agreed to when hired. This is the way you're treating the whole situation.

Oh, and the wife and kids thing, waaaayyy off. As if you know me anyway.

At what point is it “a strike" absolutely necessary? It becomes necessary to strike when all other means of negotiations have been exhausted. It becomes necessary to strike when management makes it clear that they need help understanding the level of our resolve. It becomes necessary to strike when management needs to understand that the cost of obstinate procrastination is more expensive and damaging to the company then reaching a fair agreement.

Sure the 401k thing sucks, there's supposedly a %40 deficiency in pay. Yes it does suck, big time. It sucks to the tee of about $6500 a year. Any moron can go to any of the sites that list the pay for the different fractionals to determine how little we are paid relative to the others. If we are talking about N.J. its more then 40% and the company has been enjoying this highly reduced pay for years.

But what about the offers presented? The pay increase across the board, the flexible schedules, the 7X7 duty time, the job security? Oh you mean the BS 10% across the board increase that management proposed, its an insult to all of the pilots that have been dedicated to the success of this company for years. The proposal that we go back to year one reset for pay on an aircraft up grade rather than pay by date of hire, what a joke and pay by weight, another joke. Oh yes, you mean the 7&7 that you take a huge pay cut for, another joke. There can be no job security without a ironclad Scope section of the contract. Management has been much less than forthcoming with specific information requested by our lawyers relative to the Scope section. So there is/was no job security…!!!!

What about the improved meal and lodging changes that have taken place? You mean the meal and lodging standards that were pushed into the dirt by Sh!tfinger & company being restored to where they should be. What about them?????

Do these all mean nothing? They obviously mean nothing to you.

Are you that greedy? It is not greed by any stretch of the imagination, its expecting industry standard. We are not a mom & pop operation. We are supposed to be a industry leader, at least that’s what we advertise to our customers, that’s what management keeps telling us. As an industry leader we should expect industry leading pay not what is really below mom & pop pay. Management can’t have it both ways.

You know the 401k applies to all employees, not just us. All this means is that the rest of the company, other then management, has been made to suffer just so management could make their bargaining hand at the table a little better.

You act as if we're targeted with it. The pilots were not specifically targeted, negotiations were the target.

Plus, has anybody taken a pay cut? Well let see, I already mentioned the $6000+ that I have lost with the 401K, then there has been the 1.5% loss I have taken every year because our pay increases do not even keep pace with CPI and COL. So yes I have take a cut in pay. Then there has been the ridiculous increases in the health benefits and reduction in services along with it. So yes we have taken very real pay cuts.

Don't tell me things like the 401k thing and lack of a raise recently equal that. Covered above.

I'm asking if anyone is being paid a lower salary than they agreed to when hired. I’m sorry but this is just a stupid question. Most of us have been here for many years and most all of us, at least those of us that understand what is being fought for at the negotiations table, would not still be here if we were paid less then when we started. Dare I ask if you would still be here if you were paid less then when you were hired?

This is the way you're treating the whole situation. You are treating the situation as if management can do no wrong, as if you would be happy to work for peanuts just to be here, as if the rest of the fractional industry is wrong and you and management are right, as if the rest of us should not appreciate ourselves as the professionals we are and also be happy with the same peanuts you are willing to accept. I think not!!!!!

Oh, and the wife and kids thing, waaaayyy off. As if you know me anyway. I don’t know you but considering the ideas you seem to champion on this board you have very little concern for their future and well being.

 

[skanza]

OK silver. I just have a few things after reading your post:
-Why not start off with a strike? You know it will end up there anyways. And like you really want to waste time with negtiations.
-What is the strike colses the company? You'll wish you had that "sub-industry" pay compaired to the no pay you'll have. Plus all the other people who's lives were affected negatively so you could make a fu(king point.
-No, I would not work here if I were being paid less than when I was hired.
-Every company is experiencing a rise it health care costs. Don't expect ours to be different.
-There is no such thing as job security by the way.

 

[Frac Cap]

Nice to see you back Silver. I couldn't have said it any better, and you were spot on. But I think I am making less than when I started. I just looked over my old loan papers to refinance my house so I can cut my required payments in half, just in case we go on strike. You know, hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Well I saw a copy of my check from 9 years ago, and to be absolutely honest, my check total was the same then as it is now. Nine years of trying to do an honest days job and not getting an honest days wage. Now lets talk about cost of living. My gas expense went up. My groceries went up. My health insurance went up. My taxes went way up,ect, ect. So I truly am making less now than 9 years ago.

Scumza, you are correct about one thing, I will not like not having a check coming in when, and if we go on strike. But the important thing is, it will force us to leave the sinking ship that we have been clinging to in the hopes of re-floating it. And if we do, I know it will be for bigger and better opportunities. I don't want to strike. But I will if I have to. When I looked at my check from 9 years ago, it just pissed me off. I will have the biggest sign on the picket line. This stagnant pay needs to stop, and the laughable 9% increase (from what I heard) is an insult.

So I say, industry standard or I'm voting no.

 

[SilverSurfer]

OK silver. I just have a few things after reading your post:
-Why not start off with a strike? You know it will end up there anyways. And like you really want to waste time with negtiations.
-What is the strike colses the company? You'll wish you had that "sub-industry" pay compaired to the no pay you'll have. Plus all the other people who's lives were affected negatively so you could make a fu(king point.
-No, I would not work here if I were being paid less than when I was hired.
-Every company is experiencing a rise it health care costs. Don't expect ours to be different.
-There is no such thing as job security by the way.

We didn’t establish the negotiations process the RLA did. And you are wrong about a strike being predestined. By a very large margin most labor negotiations are settled at the table and a strike is never even a consideration. I have no desire for our company to go through a strike, and you are right it will do great harm to the company. If a strike closes the company or not is entirely dependent on what management does, not the pilots. The pilots have no desire to close the company, this is in no way our goal. We simply are unwilling to continue business as usual with management, any management. A contract is mandatory.
Believe it or not there are a lot of sub standard jobs out there to be had. So should it come the company failing because of managements inaction, we will all find a way to go on, and even take one of those mom/pop sub industry jobs. Life will go on and again its up to management. What point do you think we are trying to make?
Well at least we know you are not foolish enough to work for less then you started with. But is does make one wonder why you would ask such a foolish question.
As far as job security, you are right in a ultimate sense. But under a contract with a strong scope clause, our jobs would be protected against anything short of the company shutting down.

 

[1folinepilot]

Welcome back SS!

Skanza, I see you have no reply to my previous post.

 

[o2bflyn]

Look at the recent Amerijet strike. Many non-Amerijet pilots refused charters for Amerijet because they would have been struck work. Cargo crews were checking their cargo for signs that Amerijet cargo had been loaded on their airplanes and, if found, having it removed.

You scenario is two pilots working for companies in the same industry (cargo). In this scenario you have pilots in one industry (Frac) striking while pilots in a seperate industry (charter) still working. Honestly, I dont see the parrallel.

I really just want to do the right thing here without losing my job. I am not trying to stir up too much sh!t. The facts of life for me is if I lose my job for refusing a FLOPS based trip, I have no recourse to get it back.....

 

[SilverSurfer]

Skanza,

This is right off our company website and is an example of the double standard that our management wants to ride.

Pilots

Nothing contributes more to your overall safety than a professional in the cockpit.

That's why Flight Options recruits and retains the best pilots in the industry, bar none.

Through highly selective recruitment and training programs, our pilots and crew provide an unsurpassed level of commitment, expertise, professionalism and skill which meets and often exceeds the exacting standards of the Federal Aviation Regulation Part 135. Type-rated by the FAA, Flight Options’ pilots complete two annual training events – one in a flight simulator and one in-aircraft with a FAA certified check airman.

The combined experience of the crew members onboard your Flight Options flight averages over 25 years, and over 18,000 flight hours. Since Flight Options inception, our pilots have logged over 1.2 million hours of flight time with over 900,000 legs flown. Having flown over 15,000 legs into and out of difficult terrain such as Aspen,CO, the highly experienced crew members aboard your Flight Options aircraft are ready to take on any mission.

Each Flight Options pilot has an average of over 6,900 hours of flight time and is type rated by the FAA. Each has an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) classification, is trained to the exacting standards of Federal Aviation Regulation Part 135, and undergoes a comprehensive training program at CAE SimuFlite, the world's largest training facility. In addition, our crews utilize our specially designed online supplemental ground training system for additional training on specific processes and procedures.

Each Flight Options aircraft is operated by two type-rated pilots in the cockpit. In addition to their extensive flight time, crew members complete annual simulator training and each Pilot-in-command completes a biannual practical-check ride in their aircraft. Because of our industry-leading standards and top-of-the-line training programs, we have the safest and most professional pilots in the industry.

Management wants to claim that we are the top of the industry, including the highly experience although highly under paid pilots that keep this company alive. For years the company has been selling our highly experienced pilots on our website but what they have not advertised is that we are also the lowest paid pilot in the industry. Can you tell me why management would not like that fact to be advertised to our customers.

We deserve everything that pilots in a industry leading company should receive just as the pilots in the other industry leading company's receive.

 

[shanes123]

how can they claim they have the most proffesional pilots in the Industry when idiots like scumza works there..can Flops be sued for false advertisement?

 

[skanza]

how can they claim they have the most proffesional pilots in the Industry when idiots like scumza works there..can Flops be sued for false advertisement?

Your opinion of my professionalism is just that, an opinion. Can't sue for that, fool.

 

[skanza]

YES!!!! A vast majority of the pilots that came over from Travel Air had their salary "Adjusted for theoretical aircraft deliveries and upgrade dates" thus loosing thousands of dollars of wages as management pushed back upgrade and aniversary dates on positions that were rightfully earned and flown. All the pilots had to endure the "slide to parity" or go back to year one for upgrades. THIS WAS A DIRECT CUT IN SALARY!!!!!

To continue with the cut list, All non-SFO employees had their pay cut below "industry standard per Kenn Ricci" to fund the SFO program at no cost to the company, All have had their benifit costs drastically increased and level of coverage decreased, All have lost their 401K match, a large group of the pilots have been capped and denied vacation thus loosing earned vacation hours, quality of crew food has decreased to the point of being inedible, the pilots have lost paid parking at their home domicile, CLE pilots lost their CLE domicile pay, Shall I continue with the list? No, you've made your point. If one looks at it this way, it does appear like a "direct cut in salary". But I see it another way - though you may not like it. We don't know for sure what that company's finances are like or what management, past or present, uses to make their decisions. I do believe they have the best interest of the company's health in mind since they are personally and financially invested in it. When the economy changes and flight hours go down, the size of the company has to follow, simple math. They need to find ways to stay open - mostly by cutting labor costs which are the largest overhead. This is unfortunate for everybody in the company because layed off or not, you're affected. But, I think these efforts will pay off in the long run just by keeping the company running for when the economy recovers. I know a lot of you are going to be rolling your eyes and hating me because I seem to be defending mgmnt and sound like I am part of it. But I assure you, these are my thoughts, my words, my opinions and I am not management. I'm just against the union squeezing the company when it's vunerable which could cause a collapse of everything that could otherwise be avoided. That's the point behind all of my posts. I really don't think they're trying to screw us because they know they need us and they didn't just recently get into business or aviation.

Post the company's offer for us to review Skanza as their glee about raises and schedules are meaningless without solid SCOPE protection. .

Begin hating.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Skanza/Ed you are not in management because your benefactor Bob had to remove you to appease the FAA. In the process he gained the benefit of having you out in the field to spy on the pilots and spread FUD. You talk about the reduction in all employees compensation packages being for the good of the company. That only makes sense if management takes cuts as well. Based on the fact that the previous CEO and COO sued Raytheon over bonus money I highly doubt that "senior leadership" has shared in the employees pain. They seem to be "above" such things.

 

[ProFracPilot]

I know a lot of you are going to be rolling your eyes and hating me because I seem to be defending mgmnt and sound like I am part of it.

I don't roll my eyes nor do I hate you, Skumza. I shake my head and I pity you, as I do anyone else who proves themselves a fool. Repeatedly.

 

[shanes123]

Your opinion of my professionalism is just that, an opinion. Can't sue for that, fool.

I think its more than just a opinion your a idiot, Scumza..In fact there are hundreds of posts here on FI from you that prove your a idiot..I think it would be a pretty quick open and shut case.
Oh and buy the way.. I make 40% more than you, work less days a month than you, have a 401k match and better benefits.And I dont wear a clown tie to work..

So I ask you scumza..Whos the fool?

 

[T-1GUY]

Where is the Preparation H ??? The hemorrhoid was talking again....

 

[SilverSurfer]

Skanza

Are you not able to address any of the facts and discuss them or are you only able to spew anti union BS and resort to childish name calling?

 

[William Holiday]

Just looking at some info on the web. The TA pilots, who are still at Options, have been at this now for eight years. They were right then, and had they succeeded, none of this would have happened.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Just looking at some info on the web. The TA pilots, who are still at Options, have been at this now for eight years. They were right then, and had they succeeded, none of this would have happened.

William you are exactly right. The problem was we didn't have a a$$hole like Sh!tfinger in place destroying the company and our jobs. As such the vast majority of our pilots, including me, did not believe there was a need for a Union. Hindsight is 20/20.

What really surprising is that after all that has happened at Options is there are still pilots that do not understand how badly we need a contract.

 

[skanza]

I don't roll my eyes nor do I hate you, Skumza. I shake my head and I pity you, as I do anyone else who proves themselves a fool. Repeatedly.

That's it? Its like you didn't even read my post.

 

[skanza]

Are you not able to address any of the facts and discuss them or are you only able to spew anti union BS -Just because its anti-union makes it BS? What? and resort to childish name calling?

Waaayyyy off dude. I addressed facts in my last post and in others. Everybody here sinks to name-calling level - some more than others. Please re-read my last post without bias, I'm just stating my position. It's unfortunate that when you people catch a glimpse of somebody that doesn't support the union, you immediately discount everything they say. And reduce your ability to read and comprehend something from and objective angle. I, however don't discount you guys.
This is getting tiring...

 

[skanza]

Skanza/Ed you are not in management because your benefactor Bob had to remove you to appease the FAA. In the process he gained the benefit of having you out in the field to spy on the pilots and spread FUD. You talk about the reduction in all employees compensation packages being for the good of the company. That only makes sense if management takes cuts as well. Based on the fact that the previous CEO and COO sued Raytheon over bonus money I highly doubt that "senior leadership" has shared in the employees pain. They seem to be "above" such things.

I'm not "Ed".
I didn't say the 'reduction in all employees compensation packages is good for the company', I meant it was necessary to remain open. Plus, how do you know that senior leadership hasn't been included in the reductions? Fact only here please.
The former CEO/COO are not relevant anymore. Just let it go.
Define FUD (in your view).

 

[dime line]

FUD = anything Skumza said,
And Senior leadership, if a line pilot has the ability to takes a plane with his family on vacation, do you really think Senior Leadership has taken a hit?