Deal reached on new pilot hours

[skyaddict]

{snip}


Raising the minimum hours required to work at a 121 carrier is only one small part of what needs to take place to put things right in this industry. However it is a step in the right direction in that it at least attempts to force the airlines to hire pilots with more experience. It's certainly not a perfect solution, but again the airlines have made it quite clear they'd be content with a fresh commercial pilot in the left seat and a private pilot riding as an apprentice in the right seat (forgive me a bit of hyperbole). A limit has to be set somewhere, and the carriers have made it abundantly clear they are not willing to do so voluntarily.

Excellent post-- it is all about establishing some kind of minimal floor. Quite apart from experience, to the extent that a floor modifies the supply of regional fodder even a little bit, pay and work rules will be improved, which will benefit safety. Also badly needed is legislation that prevents those companies, whose logos and names appear on regional hulls and the passengers tickets and boarding passes, from using a few sentences of fine print to whitewash themselves of any liability from their regional partners. Shared liability for accidents would trigger more safety audits and hopefully more mentoring of their regional partners operating procedures, as well as training programs.

 

[Tristar]

Also badly needed is legislation that prevents those companies, whose logos and names appear on regional hulls and the passengers tickets and boarding passes, from using a few sentences of fine print to whitewash themselves of any liability from their regional partners. Shared liability for accidents would trigger more safety audits and hopefully more mentoring of their regional partners operating procedures, as well as training programs.

Agreed completely. I'll add, and their hiring practices.

 

[Quimby]

There should be more checkrides beyond that which is currently required for a given rating or certificate. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over time. Right now, it's just alot of politicians talking. Let's see how long it takes for this talk to turn to actions.

There's the problem. Scoundrels, crooks and thieves trying to regulate an industry they know nothing about.

 

[Quimby]

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.

RE: Civ v. Mil

Mil pilots are good at flying Mil planes.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Civ pilots are trained to basic standards but can adapt quickly.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Pilots have ego's? Weird...

 

[CFI2766]

As you said there is better chance that the 800 military pilot is better, so go with odds. BTW Only my humble experience, but having hired 47 military background pilots in last 12 years, only one failure, 298 civilian background hires, 27 failures. When you hired a mil pilot they are pretty much cookie cutter, you know what you are getting, when you hire a civilian you can get a superb pilot better than anything you have ever seen and you can also get something that should never be near an airplane unescorted.

As Col. Potter would have said: "Horse Hockey"....

I strongly suspect that you can't make a scientific generalization because the numbers are too large. How many people are separated/retired from the mil route and seeking employment in the 121 world per year? How many straight civilian trained pilots are seeking employment per year? The success to failure ration of each of these two samples of the overall population is what should be compared in this budding 'mil vs. civilian' route debate.

When you get a winged mil guy seeking the first professional civilian aviation job, generally they've already made it through one rigorous screening process. For the civilian guy, the first screening process usually is basic indoc through the sims of the their first employer.

If you want to make your argument have some statistic validity, compare the number of UPT washouts to the number of washouts in the 121 world at the regionals. I suspect the numbers would be quite similar. In fairness, however, I would have NO way of proving this theory.

 

[CFI2766]

I think it counter-productive and asinine to deride 'pilotyip'. Clearly, he has views that are counter to the vast majority of professional pilots. Obviously, he is compensated by the amount of work he can get out of pilots, not by the quality of pilot he produces and retains. This makes him identical to the management teams of every airline out there.

It would make more sense to learn from him, whether he believes that he is teaching or not, so that you know what to expect when dealing with your own management.

 

[pilotyip]

Excellent post

As Col. Potter would have said: "Horse Hockey"....
When you get a winged mil guy seeking the first professional civilian aviation job, generally they've already made it through one rigorous screening process. For the civilian guy, the first screening process usually is basic indoc through the sims of the their first employer.......If you want to make your argument have some statistic validity, compare the number of UPT washouts to the number of washouts in the 121 world at the regionals. I suspect the numbers would be quite similar. In fairness, however, I would have NO way of proving this theory.

Hit the nail right on the head, but there is another screening process, once winged they have to become mission qualified. There is a screening process at the Replacement Air Group, or what ever they call them today. There is a screening process in the squadron as you move from 3P to 2P to PPC, or section, division lead etc., the CO steps in and says I don't want that guy flying as PPC I don't think he can do the job. So beyond the application process, the UPT experience, there is the squadron grooming experience. This guy has been looked at a lot by the time he tries to get his first civilian job. BTW I know of a few who failed to make PPC, but still went on do successful airline careers, why because at the time they were hired they were the most qualified pilot available.

 

[buscap]

Hit the nail right on the head, but there is another screening process, once winged they have to become mission qualified. There is a screening process at the Replacement Air Group, or what ever they call them today. There is a screening process in the squadron as you move from 3P to 2P to PPC, or section, division lead etc., the CO steps in and says I don't want that guy flying as PPC I don't think he can do the job. So beyond the application process, the UPT experience, there is the squadron grooming experience. This guy has been looked at a lot by the time he tries to get his first civilian job. BTW I know of a few who failed to make PPC, but still went on do successful airline careers, why because at the time they were hired they were the most qualified pilot available.

Dude!!

Are you using voice recognition software? Because, if you are actually typing this incoherent drivel, then you have no business in a cockpit or sim.

English is a language.

Learn it.

 

[pilotyip]

oh my gaad, not hte speeling plocie?

Dude!!

Are you using voice recognition software? Because, if you are actually typing this incoherent drivel, then you have no business in a cockpit or sim.

English is a language.

Learn it.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! If you can raed tihs forwrad it. If you can read this you should have had no problem with the above post, I did not know I was sunmitting a paper for freshamn english, but I am flattered by your concern. In fact if you really want to help why don't you re write it in the way you believe ti should be written. That sounds like a reasonalbe request. BTW College has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

 

[CX880]

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.
.

I don't agree with that. The purpose of the college thing is to differentiate between an educated person and just another bus driver. That's why a college degree is required at any place worth going to.

 

[pilotyip]

has nothing to do with flying an airplane

I don't agree with that. The purpose of the college thing is to differentiate between an educated person and just another bus driver. That's why a college degree is required at any place worth going to.

At SWA, AT, & JB to name a few, left seats are filled with many pilots who do not have a college degree. It has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let’s go with a better standard, you must write an ACT of 27 or an SAT of 1250 to get your ATP. That would be better test of intelligence than a college degree.

 

[CX880]

At SWA, AT, & JB to name a few, left seats are filled with many pilots who do not have a college degree. It has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let’s go with a better standard, you must write an ACT of 27 or an SAT of 1250 to get your ATP. That would be better test of intelligence than a college degree.

Were not talking about intelligence, we are talking about education.

And I know for sure that you have a bout a 0 chance of getting on at JB with no college degree. Might as well play the lottery. We all know every place has those guys with no degree but they usually got on while the getting was good like when the airline first opened and they were just another skybus.

 

[Flyer1015]

I would like to get PAID more! Don't know about "PAYED"

If you're a DTW based pilot who routinely flies into 4L, then the above are one and the same. wink wink

 

[bizicmo]

At SWA, AT, & JB to name a few, left seats are filled with many pilots who do not have a college degree. It has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let’s go with a better standard, you must write an ACT of 27 or an SAT of 1250 to get your ATP. That would be better test of intelligence than a college degree.

What does an ACT or SAT measure other then one's ability to cram for a singular standardized test? A college degree shows the ability, drive, perseverance of one's ability to pass multiple standardized and unstandardized tests over a multi year period.

 

[Tristar]

At SWA, AT, & JB to name a few, left seats are filled with many pilots who do not have a college degree. It has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let’s go with a better standard, you must write an ACT of 27 or an SAT of 1250 to get your ATP. That would be better test of intelligence than a college degree.

Once upon a time you could also find presidents of banks, CEO's of major corporations, engineers, and even doctors. They evolved, embraced the concept that being a professional required higher levels of education. Conceivably you could possess all of the knowledge to do any of those jobs without a college degree - what do you think the odds are of being hired or respected within that community?

As has been said, it isn't a matter of the degree being necessary to yank and bank. It is a matter of recognizing that we need to evolve and move forward if we hope to ever improve the profession.

 

[pilotyip]

mnay other ways to prove the same thing

What does an ACT or SAT measure other then one's ability to cram for a singular standardized test? A college degree shows the ability, drive, perseverance of one's ability to pass multiple standardized and unstandardized tests over a multi year period.

completion of a military flight training program shows the same, Amry does not require a degree, completion of a two-year radiation technican at teh two-year jr college, qualifiy as a Nuc Power plant operator in the Sunmarien. These are all tests of one ability to shows the ability, drive, perseverance of one's ability to pass multiple standardized and unstandardized tests over a multi year period.

 

[FO4life]

The thing that I find funny about this whole thing, and I have said it before. Two years ago when I got laid off I had and atp and two jet type ratings with I don't know 2800-3000 hours and I could not get a call from Messaba or pinnical. but you have a Zero to hero with 500 hours getting calls. Just funny, F everybody.

 

[pilotyip]

spleeping plocie

.

Doesn’t the completion of a military flight training program shows the same things? The Army does not require a degree. How about completion of a two-year radiation technician at the two-year jr. college, and qualifying as a Nuc Power plant operator in the Submarine, does that show the same things. These are all tests of one ability to show the ability, drive, perseverance of one's ability to pass multiple standardized and unstandardized tests over a multi year period. BTW Don't want the spelling, paragraph, and grammar ploice t oget atfer me.

 

[acpilot]

Were not talking about intelligence, we are talking about education.

And I know for sure that you have a bout a 0 chance of getting on at JB with no college degree. Might as well play the lottery. We all know every place has those guys with no degree but they usually got on while the getting was good like when the airline first opened and they were just another skybus.

You can "educate" a monkey. That doesn't mean it can successfully operate a door knob.

 

[acpilot]

I don't agree with that. The purpose of the college thing is to differentiate between an educated person and just another bus driver. That's why a college degree is required at any place worth going to.

I'm all for an education requirement! Let's make a 4-year degree in the hard sciences (chem, bio, engineering, etc) a requirement or, if you don't have that, a masters degree in something other than the "fine arts!" In the real world, a requirement like this would do nothing but raise the cost of pilot labor. You probably won't make flying any more safe than it is now.

I know many pilots who are GREAT sticks and only have a HS education. I would rather have an ATP/A&P IA with a GED in the cockpit than an ATP with an MBA, all other things being equal.

If you want to give professional pilots a "professional image," you should be pushing for requirements for graduate degrees/MBA's/JD's. Virtually everyone entering the aviation industry has a 2 or 4 year college degree now. What do those have to do with flying? Nothing! All they do is prove someone was determined enough to get through those degrees.