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Deal reached on new pilot hours

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Who in f%^& wants to read that rant!

No kidding, this master tool is the same guy who states a pilot shouldn't challenge a MEL despite blantant FARs saying the PIC has final authority to decide the safety of the flight. He is promoting the breaking of FARs. He is an old washed up anti-Sulley who didn't get his big break during his career and in now some pathetic attempt is trying to burn the profession and promote his non-excellence. I wonder if he's trolling on here and still private messaging people with a multi-page cry for recognition biography of himself. What a piss ant.
 
Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism. You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737. So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. That is the dilemma with FED EX, they have a chief pilot who thinks like you and hired all his military buddies and dont give an opportunity to any civilian pilot who worked harder and did his dues flying 135 and regional flying. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.
 
What I didn't answer your question?

Who in f%^& wants to read that rant!
I though you ask why we had training failures?
 
Counldn't agree more

Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.
Well trained mission capable pilots come from both the civilian and mil worlds. It is just in humble opinion that there is a uniformity in the mil not seen in the civ. Please don't stereotype the mil pilot anymore than I don't stereotype civilian pilots. You want to talk about IFR flying look at the mission of the P-3 flying out of Iceland in the winter, or out of the Azores almost anytime of the year and you find a guy who has spent a lot of time at low altitude night time in solid IFR conditions with one engine shut down. Sometimes in freezing rain. I flew 600 hours in 6 months day night all weather around Vietnam, mission had to go every day and night, Monsoons, TRW’s, fog 500 foot vis, we had fly. At age 26 with 1200 hours total time I was made an aircraft commander, I was well trained to do that mission worldwide. However I could not enter the traffic pattern at an uncontrolled airport. Different strokes for different pilots. That is the result of a great training program. Great training programs exisit in the civilian world, they just teach different things.
 
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You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, nails it on the head about the putz called pilotyip!
 
Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism. You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737. So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. That is the dilemma with FED EX, they have a chief pilot who thinks like you and hired all his military buddies and dont give an opportunity to any civilian pilot who worked harder and did his dues flying 135 and regional flying. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.

Really? Is this what you're thinking of when you see the birds flyby you in the 152? Civ pilots are not god either, I'd rather have a military pilot fly my Fedex shipped beef jerky than some civ pilot so that it arrives safe.
 
A friend of mines daughter has been in the guard flying C-130's for over two years. She has around 600 hrs, but she is now not airline material, But two guys with their CFI's, buy a C-150, fly it together day/VFR for 300 hours giving each other dual and they are instant 800 hour pilots, a hard number has nothing to do with skill. For example the 500 ME means nothing, we have hired military helos drivers into the right seat of the DA-20 Falcon. They got 10 hours ME to get their ratings. They out flew the 1500 ME guys coming out of the 135 world. Why excellent CRM skills, and excellent IFR skills. Plus just an opinion that the light control touch that a helo driver has is better adopted to a jet transition than muscling a PA-31 around the skies. BTW We had minor problem with one guy who tried pulling up on the right armrest to get back on gluide slope, we fixed that one

You're right, a hard number is not a direct reflection on skill. Neither is coming from the military a direct reflection on skill. I think we'd agree that there are a LOT of variables that contribute to making a skilled airman.
The worst pilot I've ever flown with was an ex C-130 driver, and a complete ******************************bag to top it off.
On the other hand, I've flown with some outstanding ex mil guys, both fixed wing and rotor.
Good news on the legistation. It's a starting point.
 
Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism. You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737. So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. That is the dilemma with FED EX, they have a chief pilot who thinks like you and hired all his military buddies and dont give an opportunity to any civilian pilot who worked harder and did his dues flying 135 and regional flying. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.

Good luck getting your English proficiency endorsement.
 
Good luck getting your English proficiency endorsement.

And he wonders why he couldn't get on at the legacy's when all that was required was a pulse!
This doosh bag (pilotyip) just sent another love note via pm.
He is the epitimy of what's wrong with this industry. And at his age he should just bow out and retire, and do the industry a huge favor!
 
FI at its best

And he wonders why he couldn't get on at the legacy's when all that was required was a pulse!
This doosh bag (pilotyip) just sent another love note via pm.
He is the epitimy of what's wrong with this industry. And at his age he should just bow out and retire, and do the industry a huge favor!
does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?
 
does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

I don't know, when people put the C-152 as the only aircraft they've flown it's often times sarcasm.
 
does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

What's the matter yip? Nobody to threaten to fire today?
Boring day at the office? Nobody to turn into the FAA?
Professionalism? You're off your rocker. This from the same scumbag who wrote in a 2 page letter he regrets not crossing the picket line at EAL!
Do the world a favor old man, get out while you still have some dignity, then you can sit around the shuffle board court and talk about what could have been.
AMF!
 
You have to understand we are a bottom feeder. You wear a pager, you are on 30 minute call outs, you fly to strange places in the middle of the night, you de-ice airplanes all the time, and YIP is IFR almost all winter with icing conditions. During hiring booms nobody applies here unless they can not find a job someplace else. During these times our turnover is high.
{snip}


All of this may well be true, but it then points to the fact that your company is offering a compensation package which is inadequate to retain people given the working conditions. I realize that they have obviously found a balance which (at least for the time) allows them to maintain an influx of replacements is the current environment, but I must question the quality of the product you are providing in the "good times." Obviously it's fairly easy to get highly capable pilots right now, but I don't think there is any way you can honestly claim you have as safe an operation when times are good and what you have is a captain who "can not find a job someplace else" paired with a "500 CFI". If both attracting and retaining talented individuals isn't a high priority, then there is no way the company can be a "premier company."

It's oxymoronic to state in your first sentence that it is a bottom feeder, then shortly thereafter that it is a "premier company" and talk about how well your evaluations have gone. First, we all know that both FAA and third party evaluations are (to a large extent) window dressing. You can have all your i's dotted and t's crossed, but still not have a quality operation based on the people you have working "in the trenches." I'll grant that with those kinds of turnover numbers, your training department should certainly be proficient - but having that much turnover cannot be good for the continuity of the operation.

I know the argument is "we can't afford to pay more." If you are truly producing a premium product (particularly in the corporate charter world), you should be able to command some sort of premium price for it. Part of the cost of producing that product would be to offer a compensation package which is adequate to attract and retain employees. If you are failing to do so, then something is wrong. I understand a certain amount of turnover, but that's out of hand.

Back to the topic at hand, I too am disappointed that they aren't holding to the ATP standard for hiring at a 121 carrier. If that causes you some inconvenience in your hiring process, well that's unfortunate for you. I (like many others), believe that it is more appropriate for new pilots to gain initial experience somewhere other than in the right seat of a 121 airline. Yes, there are certainly those who can pass the ATP check ride at 300 hours, but simply the ability to maintain altitude on your steep turns and fly an approach well does not an experienced pilot make. The public rightly expects when they board an airliner that they are getting well qualified, experienced pilots. In fact, they've been getting cheated.

It seems to me that your company (and most others) wants to ever keep cheapening the product they sell, while claiming it's as good as it ever was. It isn't, and claiming it is doesn't change that fact.

If the current trend continues, there will come a time (it may already be here) when the best people (which is what the career has historically attracted) won't bother to go into it anymore, and virtually all of those available will be those who can't find a job in another career field, and there won't be enough of them. Then all of the airlines will then decry the lack of applicants and push for MPL. Then they will cheapen that up, until people won't even want to make the investment for a guaranteed job at 300 hours (it won't be worth it). What will they do then? Lobby the government to draft people to fly for them?

The current trend at the airlines amounts to nothing less than burning the furniture to keep the house warm. You have succeeded in getting labor ever cheaper, but it truly is a case of be careful what you wish for - because in the long run you are undercutting one of the key elements you need for your business to operate successfully.

Raising the minimum hours required to work at a 121 carrier is only one small part of what needs to take place to put things right in this industry. However it is a step in the right direction in that it at least attempts to force the airlines to hire pilots with more experience. It's certainly not a perfect solution, but again the airlines have made it quite clear they'd be content with a fresh commercial pilot in the left seat and a private pilot riding as an apprentice in the right seat (forgive me a bit of hyperbole). A limit has to be set somewhere, and the carriers have made it abundantly clear they are not willing to do so voluntarily.

PS - There's a button on the right side of your keyboard, often marked "Enter" or "Return." Judicious use of it allows you to create what we call "paragraphs" to separate different lines of thought. They make the written word easier to read and comprehend - you might want to look into using them in the future on lengthy posts (again, forgive me for being an @$$ - I just couldn't pass that one up).
 
please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism.

No, it's all about real world experience, and no matter how you slice or dice it, a 300 hour pilot has very little of it. They may well do an excellent job manipulating the aircraft, but they simply don't the the experience to provide the resources for decision making which is a large element of what a professional pilot is being paid for. One of the key elements of CRM is the guy in the right seat having the ability to question the decisions made by the guy in the left seat - a 300 hour pilot does not have an adequate amount of experience to draw from to do so effectively.

You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737.

Great for your friend, not so great for the passengers who are getting half of the experience in the cockpit they think they are. This is nothing more than a glorified example of what Gulfstream does - you are doing flight instruction in an airliner (I've talked to several ex Gulfstream captains who freely admit they were often effectively flying single pilot). Again, not meeting the standard expected on an airliner.

I'm not buying into the whole military/civilian thing. The only intelligent thing that's been said about that topic is there are strong and weak individuals from both backgrounds.
 

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