Deal reached on new pilot hours

[ualdriver]

Nobody is dismissing anything. Four year degrees are nice to have. I don't think anyone anywhere has ever said that a 4year is a bad thing.

Yes, you are. In your post above, you stated the following:

Are they somehow "better" than a pilot with a HS education who went straight into an aviation career? Of course not!

If a college education doesn't make one a "better" pilot, then you're dismissing the value of the education that I and many others have received. When I was in high school, I wanted to be a pilot. I went to college so that I could be a "better" pilot. The education that I paid for in money and personal sacrifice made me a "better" pilot than the pilot I would have been had I simply graduated from high school and gone directly into the profession. You obviously disagree with that, or I assume you wouldn't have said, "Of course not!" You are therefore dismissing the value of the education that I and many others on this forum had received. I think that you are wrong in that belief.

 

[acpilot]

So, a four year makes you a better pilot than an HS grad?

 

[Caveman]

Wow, you wasted your time getting a 10th grade education? He11, don't you know that a smart 8th grader could fly an airplane just fine? I don't see the point wasting one's time in anything about the 8th grade level. I mean, the Amish do it and they're going strong. Have you seen the way they can handle a tractor- with no rubber on the wheels nonetheless!! What are you really going to learn in High School, anyway? I spent SO much wasted time reading the classics, learning geometry, trigonometry, world history, calculus, computer programming languages, social sciences, etc., and to tell you the truth I really never use any of those skills in my job as a pilot. When's the last time your airline asked you to calculate the area under a curve or about the rise of Hitler in Germany after WW I? What a waste of information!! If only I could turn back the clock and do it right....

You and Kalifornia just can't stomach the idea an 'uneducated' cretin like me is just as professional and skilled as you are. You're also pretty defensive about it. I think I know why. Everything you believed about Riddle has just been proven WRONG. I'm living proof the $100K you dropped to learn about aeroscience was unnecessary. That's gotta sting. Plus, it's disheartening having the riff-raff hanging around the country club. I get that.

I support going to college and if I had to do it all over again I would certainly do things differently. Quitting school one month into my junior year wasn't just some dumb kid making a stupid mistake. There were extenuating circumstances that are none of your business. I won't bore you with the details, but suffice it to say I come from the School of Hard Knocks. I'm not bragging or complaining. It's just the way it was. I was fortunate the way things turned out. It could have been much, much worse.

BTW, for all the youngsters out there that might be reading this: STAY IN SCHOOL. I got lucky. Most folks in my shoes don't make it as far as I did in this business. Graduating from college will greatly improve your chances of becoming a pro pilot. What you learn won't make you a better pilot, but it will make you a better person. Besides, without a degree your chances of getting an interview at a major these days are almost zero . It can be done, but the odds are stacked heavily against you. If for no other reason than that you have to get your degree.

UAL, Kalifornia, Yip and I are all correct even though we disagree on a few points. College has almost nothing to do with being a good pilot. It has everything to do with being successful. Just because you read about one guy that made it in through the side door doesn't mean that's a viable plan. Stay in school.

 

[pilotyip]

Wwii

So, a four year makes you a better pilot than an HS grad?

WWII was a pretty good testing ground of pilot's skills and there was no difference in performance between the HS grad and college grad. Hap Arnold was also hung up on the college degree thing being a West Point graduate. However Robert Lovett a WWI Navy pilot and college drop out, who was appointed the first Secretary of the Air Force (Army Air Corp at the time) by FDR, told him he was filling his cockpits with the wrong guys. He would also not be able to produce the number of pilots needed to fill WWII cockpits with this limitation. He gave the college grads the aptitude test that tested for the traits needed to succeed in the cockpit. Many college grads did not pass the test. However there was a high pass rate by the non-graduates.

 

[CX880]

Nobody is questioning the VALUE of an education (an education is priceless), only whether or not is is required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane.

Many of the younger pilots are graduating with degrees in flyology from ERAU, AzSU, etc. The vast majority know NOTHING outside of aviation and are just plain boring to talk to. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered vocational school grads. Are they somehow "better" than a pilot with a HS education who went straight into an aviation career? Of course not!

Are you on acid?? You are the only one that keeps arguing against your self. No one else is saying that it's required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane!

And I agree ERAU should not be considered a formal education. How beneficial is 2 hours of FMS 101 every other day????

 

[CX880]

WWII was a pretty good testing ground of pilot's skills and there was no difference in performance between the HS grad and college grad. Hap Arnold was also hung up on the college degree thing being a West Point graduate. However Robert Lovett a WWI Navy pilot and college drop out, who was appointed the first Secretary of the Air Force (Army Air Corp at the time) by FDR, told him he was filling his cockpits with the wrong guys. He would also not be able to produce the number of pilots needed to fill WWII cockpits with this limitation. He gave the college grads the aptitude test that tested for the traits needed to succeed in the cockpit. Many college grads did not pass the test. However there was a high pass rate by the non-graduates.

Sounds to me like you're still stuck 70 years ago. It's called evolution. Now a college education is as common as an elementary education.

 

[pilotyip]

couldn't agree more?

Sounds to me like you're still stuck 70 years ago. It's called evolution. Now a college education is as common as an elementary education.

Anyone can get a college degree, good for them,. I mean I even got a couple and look what is has done for me. But it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let me give you the background on the college degree thing. I do not judge a man by his degree, where he lives, or what he does for a living. I judge a man on the content of his character. I find the college degrees only crowd here, a bit arrogant, a smacking of if you do not have a degree you are not as good as me. I know too many people who are successful and fine men who do not have a degrees, I know many people with degrees who will never make any impact upon anything. I know too many pilots without degrees who I consider some of the most successful people I know I admire them and the lives they have built. So I bait, about the non-importance of the college degree in this business. I think this sets off the college degree only crowd because it distorts their view of what they have done. Secondarily my pilot heroes did not have college degrees and they performed feats that would test the metal of anyone. They flew in WWII, George Bush I in the Pacific, the 10,000’s of B-17 and B-24 pilots in Europe, and the C-46 pilots over the hump in China. I meet these guys on the air show circuit, they come to see the C-47 and B-17, and I ask them about their adventures during the war. I am in awe of what they did. How can anyone say these guys without degrees were not as good as today’s degreed pilots?

 

[Quimby]

Please tell me I'm missing sarcasm here...

Glad I'm not the only one...

 

[Tristar]

I said it before, I'll repost and say it again since some on here keep thinking the issue is whether a degree is required to be capable of manipulating an aircraft - it's not, and that IS NOT the point.

Once upon a time you could also find presidents of banks, CEO's of major corporations, engineers, and even doctors without degrees. They evolved, embraced the concept that being a professional required higher levels of education. Conceivably you could possess all of the knowledge to do any of those jobs without a college degree - what do you think the odds are of being hired or respected within those communities?

As has been said, it isn't a matter of the degree being necessary to yank and bank. It is a matter of recognizing that we need to evolve and move forward if we hope to ever improve the profession.

Yip, no disrespect intended here, but it is a funny coincidence that you seem to be the one who is most adamant that it's not necessary. I see a connection in that if a degree were required, there would probably be a significant reduction in the pool of pilots you have to draw from and/or your turnover rate would probably be even higher. You yourself state no one dreams of working for JUS and those who do are essentially those who "can't find a job elsewhere." I'm guessing some of those are limited in their career options by that very lack of a degree.

CAVEMAN said: UAL, Kalifornia, Yip and I are all correct even though we disagree on a few points. College has almost nothing to do with being a good pilot. It has everything to do with being successful. Just because you read about one guy that made it in through the side door doesn't mean that's a viable plan. Stay in school. {emphasis mine}

This is completely correct. When they make me czar (waiting for that call any day now), I would set up a system somewhat akin to what I understand the AMA or Bar association have. I would REQUIRE courses beyond just flying/fixing aircraft. You're paying for a college education, you should be receiving more than a technical school education. I say this as a graduate of a university aviation program (Purdue, maintenance and flight). I do think I received excellent training in my major, and while I certainly did have a number of general education courses (math, communication, science, psych, and more), I'd require more than I had with the goal of producing a well rounded graduate.

(PS - before those of you who don't have a degree wet yourselves, I'd grandfather anyone who is currently a 121 pilot without a degree)

 

[pilotyip]

It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing could is further from the truth. The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with FedEx, then that prospective pilot should go to college. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. My advice is go to school part time or community college and fly, pilots get hired because they have flight time. Flt time moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step. You can go to school part time with a full time flying job, you cannot build real flight time while going to school full time. I have seen non-degreed guys go to the Nationals in their mid-20’s. I guess we are getting very politically correct and having an option different that someone else’s is not allowed. I continually see the “If you do not have college degree you are not as good as me” I can not accept that, I just too many people who I admire who do not have degrees. BTW aT JUS almost every pilot has a college degree, because everyone has them.

 

[CX880]

I guess we are getting very politically correct and having an option different that someone else’s is not allowed. I continually see the “If you do not have college degree you are not as good as me” I can not accept that, I just too many people who I admire who do not have degrees..

How would the airlines know that you are better than me? Are you going to call them and tell them that you are a really really well educated person but only finished high school? That's why they have benchmarks, chances are really good that you are a better person if you have the degree.

Stop feeding the troll.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I guess I should turn in my ATP because I only finished the 10th grade. I finally got a GED so I could reenlist in the Marine Corps. I didn't have to do anything for it. I just showed up at the base education center and 20 minutes later I had a GED.

Over the years I did take a grand total of 5 classes from various community colleges on base. They were tough courses too: Motorcycle Maintenance, American History 101, Algebra 101, Geology 101 and a basic computer programming course (I don't even remember what it was). Those 5 classes (took me 13 years) plus my pencil whipped GED and credit for military schools allowed me to convince a community college to give me a basic AA degree. Frankly, it's a joke but it was enough to check the box.

I hate to burst your bubble but I made it to a major airline with essentially a tenth grade education and 5 random and unrelated college classes.

BTW, unless I misunderstood the article I got the impression the 800 hour requirement was to get a Commercial certificate. It wasn't a mandated hiring minimum. Did anybody else read it that way?

You misunderstood the article. A commerical can be had at 250 hrs. which is the minimum time (or certificate) allowed to hold a 121 FO spot. The proposal states that you can still acquire the commerical at 250 but there would be a minimum amount of time (800 hrs.) before you could apply and be hired by an airline. It's a hiring minimum - not a certification minimum.

Perhaps college might've fortified your reading comprehension.

 

[ualdriver]

You and Kalifornia just can't stomach the idea an 'uneducated' cretin like me is just as professional and skilled as you are. You're also pretty defensive about it. I think I know why. Everything you believed about Riddle has just been proven WRONG. I'm living proof the $100K you dropped to learn about aeroscience was unnecessary. That's gotta sting. Plus, it's disheartening having the riff-raff hanging around the country club. I get that.

No, actually you don't "get that." You have NO IDEA how much I spent to go to ERAU. Not a clue. And the fact that you threw 100K out there shows me how far off base you are. So actually, you're the one being proven WRONG, along with all those other ridiculous comments you made about me. You don't even know me. And if you and your buddies think that young people who attend aeronautical universities (whether you think they're worth the 100K or not) and spend 4 years of their lives getting a very technical degree learn *NOTHING* that makes them a better professional pilot, I just don't know what to say.

Further, I never said you have to have a college education to become a pilot. Personally, I think it would be foolish for a young person today, graduating from high school, to not get at least a Bachelor's Degree. Further, I wouldn't recommend ERAU now, either, simply because of how much it costs. In my opinion, there are skills that you learn while attending a good university/community college/whatever that transfer to life and one's profession. Again, if one doesn't "get that," and dismisses that out of hand, then what do you say?

 

[1x1]

I thought this was a thread about new work rules or something.

 

[ualdriver]

So, a four year makes you a better pilot than an HS grad?

No, the fact that you have a "four year" does not make you a better pilot. The fact that you spend 4 years of your life, full time, learning about the topics I discussed above, makes one a better pilot. If one spent 4 years of their life on their own, studying the same exact material at home and does not obtain a degree at the end of their self-education, that would likely make them a better pilot as well.

But you and I aren't talking about the rare individual who would do that. We're talking about the "average" (in a statistical sense) pilot who chooses not to go to college and the "average" name brand aeronautical university college graduate. Again, if one were to compare the two, I suspect the "average" college graduate would have a broader, deeper knowledge of the skill sets our profession uses on a day to day basis. Just like I told caveman above, if you think an individual spends 4 years of his life, full time, in an aeronautical university and learns *NOTHING* that improves himself as a professional pilot, I just don't know what to tell you.

 

[ualdriver]

I thought this was a thread about new work rules or something.

This is Flightinfo.com. You should know better than that

 

[Tristar]

This is Flightinfo.com. You should know better than that

True, but we still haven't brought up gerbils...

 

[Tristar]

It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing could is further from the truth. The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies.

We are in complete agreement on this point - and further I agree that a degree (from an aviation university or in aviation) should meet these same criteria.

I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry.

That's a selective understatement. It's a defacto requirement at virtually all majors, and many other carriers. It's hardly a "select few."

If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary.

Particularly if you enjoy starting over at the bottom of the industry and payscale every few years when the carrier you are working for folds. Odds are you aren't going to make $70-$100K per year, year in and year out in the non-skeds, second and third tier freight haulers, they are likely to go out of business, and then you're starting over from zero (sound familiar?) - made even more difficult with no degree. The debt from the loans from a real degree may not only help you get a job, more importantly it may help you get a job doing something you can actually make a living at (which often is NOT flying).

Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes.

What if memorizing limitations or red border items isn't important to them, or perhaps having an understanding of the FAR's. No lack of intelligence, just not important to them - they just want to get on with yanking and banking. It's a question of drive and discipline - if you don't possess a certain requisite amount you aren't going to fare well in aviation or life.

I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. My advice is go to school part time or community college and fly, pilots get hired because they have flight time. Flt time moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step.

{stepping back in time a few years...}
"I have seen too many non-degreed doctors reach a good career position with out a degree. My advice is go to read medical books part time and catch leeches, doctors get hired because they have a large jar of leeches. Having let a lot of blood and owning thick wooden implements to bite on while sawing off limbs moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step."

You can go to school part time with a full time flying job, you cannot build real flight time while going to school full time. I have seen non-degreed guys go to the Nationals in their mid-20’s.

What did they do when their national went out of business? Again, no one is arguing that it's necessary to operate the aircraft - it's a question of personal development as well as industry enhancement.

I guess we are getting very politically correct and having an option different that someone else’s is not allowed. I continually see the “If you do not have college degree you are not as good as me” I can not accept that, I just too many people who I admire who do not have degrees.

I wasn't aware that you weren't being allowed to have your opinion - in fact the very presence of this segment of the thread testifies to the contrary. It has nothing to do with not being as "good as" anyone else - it's a question of what we want the industry to look like in the future.

Literacy was once the exception not the rule, shall we advocate that it's not necessary because many illiterate people have "reached good career positions," or because they are good people worthy of admiration? Hyperbole perhaps, but it points out the absurdity of the argument.

BTW aT JUS almost every pilot has a college degree, because everyone has them.

EXACTLY. Now - which ones are "stuck" at JUS because the "can't get hired anywhere else?"

 

[phishn@daves]

The military flies more than fighter jets! And they actually fly in actual IFR!!

Good point. I was speaking of him.

 

[Caveman]

No, actually you don't "get that." You have NO IDEA how much I spent to go to ERAU. Not a clue. And the fact that you threw 100K out there shows me how far off base you are. So actually, you're the one being proven WRONG, along with all those other ridiculous comments you made about me. You don't even know me. And if you and your buddies think that young people who attend aeronautical universities (whether you think they're worth the 100K or not) and spend 4 years of their lives getting a very technical degree learn *NOTHING* that makes them a better professional pilot, I just don't know what to say.

Further, I never said you have to have a college education to become a pilot. Personally, I think it would be foolish for a young person today, graduating from high school, to not get at least a Bachelor's Degree. Further, I wouldn't recommend ERAU now, either, simply because of how much it costs. In my opinion, there are skills that you learn while attending a good university/community college/whatever that transfer to life and one's profession. Again, if one doesn't "get that," and dismisses that out of hand, then what do you say?

Pot meet kettle. Go back and reread what you posted and tell me again who was the one that started posting crap about someone they don't even know. You did and Kalifornia did. I gave one example (me) of someone that made it to a major without a HS degree. It was you and Kalifornia that started the personal attacks. You reap what you sow pal.

I stand by my statement. You (or Daddy) paid way more than was necessary to learn how to fly at Riddle. I know it, everybody that isn't a Riddle grad knows it and you do too. There's no way you'll convince me that attending Riddle made you a more well rounded person and improved your liberal arts education. It's a technical school all about airplanes and it's attended primarily by white middle class young men. Where's the cultural diversity and liberal arts exposure in that? That degree is worthless outside aviation. It did four things for you: It taught you how to fly; it allows you to check the college degree box on the employment app; it gives you a good alumni pool to network from; and it made your (or Daddy's) bank account significantly smaller. If you think for a moment anybody outside avaition will give a damn about the wonderful and diverse education you got at Riddle you are delusional.