Deal reached on new pilot hours

[OrionFE]

I was airline and went fractional. At the airline I was CA for 4 yrs. FO for 3. Interviewed and was sim partners with an Air Force Training CA. He was the worst pilot I have ever shared a sim with.

1. He has almost zero instrument time (they do not fly in wx.)

2. Zero glass time ( I understand that)

3. Cannot hand fly in the clouds.

I can give you his name and number if you are ex AF and do not believe me.

Problem is........We (CIV) do not "plan" the trip for 12 hours the day before. We go out and fly as long as it it safe. We (civ) have the experience to fly in wx planned and forecast and most times beyond that.

Please don't play the Mil. vs. Civ card, because there is no comparison when you are flying for an airline.

I cannot fly a fighter jet. I would love to. But have not been through that training program.

I'm sure most Mil. guy's make it through just fine, but this one was just not working out in the "real" world.

The military flies more than fighter jets! And they actually fly in actual IFR!!

 

[pilotyip]

years

You can "educate" a monkey. That doesn't mean it can successfully operate a door knob.

SWA no degree 2008 JB non degree 2006

 

[CX880]

You can "educate" a monkey. That doesn't mean it can successfully operate a door knob.

You're missing the point. The degree has nothing to do with operating the airplane, or safety. It has everything to do with the quality of the individual at the controls, for the company, for the passengers as well as the poor guy that has to sit next to them for 4 days.

Thankfully most major airlines like UPS have psycho tests you have to pass but you still need a degree to take that test!

 

[acpilot]

You're missing the point. The degree has nothing to do with operating the airplane, or safety. It has everything to do with the quality of the individual at the controls, for the company, for the passengers as well as the poor guy that has to sit next to them for 4 days.

Thankfully most major airlines like UPS have psycho tests you have to pass but you still need a degree to take that test!

No, I get it. Generally speaking, you may be right. Still, to operate a plane SAFELY and EFFICIENTLY, one does not need a 4-year. One of the most knowledgeable pilots I've hired was a HS grad. The weakest? An airline furlough with many thousands of hours.

I wouldn't mind if a degree became a requirement. The more stringent the requirements the better. It would place me in a better position to get a job. I'm all for the psycho tests, too!

 

[bizicmo]

completion of a military flight training program shows the same, Amry does not require a degree, completion of a two-year radiation technican at teh two-year jr college, qualifiy as a Nuc Power plant operator in the Sunmarien. These are all tests of one ability to shows the ability, drive, perseverance of one's ability to pass multiple standardized and unstandardized tests over a multi year period.

I guess i don't get what your getting at? If i sit through 4th grade i qualify for 5th grade and if i sit through 7th grade i qualify for 8th grade. If i go to college and get a degree i qualify for a better job. what are you arguing, that we should just drop all educational requirements of any kind if you just happen to know the right people, you get whatever job those people can refer you to?

 

[trainer8]

At SWA, AT, & JB to name a few, left seats are filled with many pilots who do not have a college degree. It has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let’s go with a better standard, you must write an ACT of 27 or an SAT of 1250 to get your ATP. That would be better test of intelligence than a college degree.

Are you kidding me? That's your threshold of hiring? I've had a total geek in the right seat who graduated from ER. Very smart guy, but had very poor CRM skills and was a poor decision maker with poor command authority. He did eventually upgrade (50 hours of OE) and has since had 3 "incidents" with the company he presently works for. I'll take a "Bob Hoover" GA pilot type (who would never be hired based on your qualifications) with good people and stick and rudder skills over a exam taker any day.

Intelligence is more than a grade, my friend.

 

[pilotyip]

I guess i don't get what yo...........ople, you get whatever job those people can refer you to?

not at all, I just saying a 4 yr degree is only one way to demonstrate your ability. On Education: I will be the first to agree with the premise that you must have an education in order to find a decent job. There are many ways to get an education besides Full Time College. Most college grads could not complete the enlisted Navy Nuc Power Plant operator training. That is because anyone can get into a college, it is a much more difficult hurtle to get into Nuc Power. BTW serious thread drift, from hours, to mil vs civ, to college degree vs non-degreed.

Intelligence is more than a grade, my friend.

couldn't agree more, we are on the same page

 

[Caveman]

You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.

I guess I should turn in my ATP because I only finished the 10th grade. I finally got a GED so I could reenlist in the Marine Corps. I didn't have to do anything for it. I just showed up at the base education center and 20 minutes later I had a GED.

Over the years I did take a grand total of 5 classes from various community colleges on base. They were tough courses too: Motorcycle Maintenance, American History 101, Algebra 101, Geology 101 and a basic computer programming course (I don't even remember what it was). Those 5 classes (took me 13 years) plus my pencil whipped GED and credit for military schools allowed me to convince a community college to give me a basic AA degree. Frankly, it's a joke but it was enough to check the box.

I hate to burst your bubble but I made it to a major airline with essentially a tenth grade education and 5 random and unrelated college classes.

BTW, unless I misunderstood the article I got the impression the 800 hour requirement was to get a Commercial certificate. It wasn't a mandated hiring minimum. Did anybody else read it that way?

 

[pilotyip]

My hero

I guess I should turn in my ATP because I only finished the 10th grade. I finally got a GED so I could reenlist in the Marine Corps. I didn't have to do anything for it. I just showed up at the base education center and 20 minutes later I had a GED.

Over the years I did take a grand total of 5 classes from various community colleges on base. They were tough courses too: Motorcycle Maintenance, American History 101, Algebra 101, Geology 101 and a basic computer programming course (I don't even remember what it was). Those 5 classes (took me 13 years) plus my pencil whipped GED and credit for military schools allowed me to convince a community college to give me a basic AA degree. Frankly, it's a joke but it was enough to check the box.

I hate to burst your bubble but I made it to a major airline with essentially a tenth grade education and 5 random and unrelated college classes.

BTW, unless I misunderstood the article I got the impression the 800 hour requirement was to get a Commercial certificate. It wasn't a mandated hiring minimum. Did anybody else read it that way?

You are a guy I would love to share a beer with, you are the man, Good for you.

 

[trainer8]

BTW, unless I misunderstood the article I got the impression the 800 hour requirement was to get a Commercial certificate. It wasn't a mandated hiring minimum. Did anybody else read it that way?

True. Current 250 min for the Commercial Certificate. In the dark ages, Part 141 schools were 190 hours...still think that is current. This would up it to 800 hours. I also thought this has to go through the NPRM process, too.

 

[pilotyip]

Too high for Comm

True. Current 250 min for the Commercial Certificate. In the dark ages, Part 141 schools were 190 hours...still think that is current. This would up it to 800 hours. I also thought this has to go through the NPRM process, too.

This would kill almost all jobs below 800 hr, no right seat 135 flying, no CFIing, no banner towing, no sky diving, no VFR only comm PIC flying. Raising comm to 800 would not help the industry. BTW The NPRM process is nearly dead, FAA is now run by FSAT's, AC's and congressional mandate like the age 65 thing.

 

[NotTooBad]

Your a bonehead. The Guy flying the high performance twin just needs to do it for a few more months. There has to be a minimum standard. I am disappointed that it won't be 1500.

You truly think a hard number is the solution? You have a warped perception. Quality of flight time - not quantity. Now these grand canyon guy is flying your family with in the shiny jet with no real experience & the one who is actually qualified needs to "do it for a few more months". I'll put my family with the lower time MORE EXPERIENCED pilot any day. The twin guy is far more qualified and the hiring standard should account for that. I don't know exactly how it should be done - but this is damn sure the wrong way.

 

[OzBushWhacker]

This would kill almost all jobs below 800 hr, no right seat 135 flying, no CFIing, no banner towing, no sky diving, no VFR only comm PIC flying. Raising comm to 800 would not help the industry.

YIP, From what i've read into it the new requirements are only for 121 Pax ops. The crusties in power have their panties all in a bunch about that (and rightly so for 300 hr zero to hero programs) BUT the million dollar question is what this will do to 135. 135 is the ugly chick at the bar no-one wants to acknowledge is there, but she's there!

I'm hoping the forthcoming rest regulations affect 135 (finally end the forever on-call debate once and for all) but not sure if these will. In my opinion there's no better place to get experience than 135 on-demand freight, if its two pilot ops and at least one knows what they're doing...

 

[Kalifornia]

I guess I should turn in my ATP because I only finished the 10th grade. I finally got a GED so I could reenlist in the Marine Corps. I didn't have to do anything for it. I just showed up at the base education center and 20 minutes later I had a GED.

Over the years I did take a grand total of 5 classes from various community colleges on base. They were tough courses too: Motorcycle Maintenance, American History 101, Algebra 101, Geology 101 and a basic computer programming course (I don't even remember what it was). Those 5 classes (took me 13 years) plus my pencil whipped GED and credit for military schools allowed me to convince a community college to give me a basic AA degree. Frankly, it's a joke but it was enough to check the box.

I hate to burst your bubble but I made it to a major airline with essentially a tenth grade education and 5 random and unrelated college classes.

BTW, unless I misunderstood the article I got the impression the 800 hour requirement was to get a Commercial certificate. It wasn't a mandated hiring minimum. Did anybody else read it that way?

Congratulations, you just gave the dumbest and pathetic person in the history of flightinfo, Pilotyip, his jollies for the day. The same guy who thinks all pilots should commute out of Detroit to live on cheap wages, who wishes and regrets he didn't cross the picket line, who private messages people across these boards with his life story, and who has promoted the breaking of Federal Aviation Regulations that a pilot in command in professional aviation should not challenge an MEL all well fully disclosing his exact position and airline which is a director of a training program.

Along that bizarre method of mind, your intent to sell out yourself as a 10th grade educated yokel is perplexing. I don't see Bill Gates, the most famous of successful college drop outs going around yucking up his lack of of formal education or suggesting it's just a joke.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/topics/pages/scholarships.aspx

With your egotistical, look at me, I fluffed by to the majors attitude, you deserve nothing more than minimum wage and working into your 70s, just like Yip. It's so stupid, even a Caveman can do it.

 

[ualdriver]

I guess I should turn in my ATP because I only finished the 10th grade. I finally got a GED so I could reenlist in the Marine Corps. I didn't have to do anything for it. I just showed up at the base education center and 20 minutes later I had a GED.

Over the years I did take a grand total of 5 classes from various community colleges on base. They were tough courses too: Motorcycle Maintenance, American History 101, Algebra 101, Geology 101 and a basic computer programming course (I don't even remember what it was). Those 5 classes (took me 13 years) plus my pencil whipped GED and credit for military schools allowed me to convince a community college to give me a basic AA degree. Frankly, it's a joke but it was enough to check the box.

I hate to burst your bubble but I made it to a major airline with essentially a tenth grade education and 5 random and unrelated college classes.

Wow, you wasted your time getting a 10th grade education? He11, don't you know that a smart 8th grader could fly an airplane just fine? I don't see the point wasting one's time in anything about the 8th grade level. I mean, the Amish do it and they're going strong. Have you seen the way they can handle a tractor- with no rubber on the wheels nonetheless!! What are you really going to learn in High School, anyway? I spent SO much wasted time reading the classics, learning geometry, trigonometry, world history, calculus, computer programming languages, social sciences, etc., and to tell you the truth I really never use any of those skills in my job as a pilot. When's the last time your airline asked you to calculate the area under a curve or about the rise of Hitler in Germany after WW I? What a waste of information!! If only I could turn back the clock and do it right....

 

[pilotyip]

back to e-trade

Congratulations, you just gave the dumbest and pathetic person in the history of flightinfo, Pilotyip, his jollies for the day. The same guy who thinks all pilots should commute out of Detroit to live on cheap wages, who wishes and regrets he didn't cross the picket line, who private messages people across these boards with his life story, and who has promoted the breaking of Federal Aviation Regulations that a pilot in command in professional aviation should not challenge an MEL all well fully disclosing his exact position and airline which is a director of a training program.

Along that bizarre method of mind, your intent to sell out yourself as a 10th grade educated yokel is perplexing. I don't see Bill Gates, the most famous of successful college drop outs going around yucking up his lack of of formal education or suggesting it's just a joke.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/topics/pages/scholarships.aspx

With your egotistical, look at me, I fluffed by to the majors attitude, you deserve nothing more than minimum wage and working into your 70s, just like Yip. It's so stupid, even a Caveman can do it.

Hey does your mom know you are using the computer, shouldn't you go back to etrade LOL.

 

[acpilot]

I spent SO much wasted time reading the classics, learning geometry, trigonometry, world history, calculus, computer programming languages, social sciences, etc., and to tell you the truth I really never use any of those skills in my job as a pilot. When's the last time your airline asked you to calculate the area under a curve or about the rise of Hitler in Germany after WW I? What a waste of information!! If only I could turn back the clock and do it right....

Nobody is questioning the VALUE of an education (an education is priceless), only whether or not is is required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane.

Many of the younger pilots are graduating with degrees in flyology from ERAU, AzSU, etc. The vast majority know NOTHING outside of aviation and are just plain boring to talk to. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered vocational school grads. Are they somehow "better" than a pilot with a HS education who went straight into an aviation career? Of course not!

 

[ualdriver]

Nobody is questioning the VALUE of an education (an education is priceless), only whether or not is is required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane.

Many of the younger pilots are graduating with degrees in flyology from ERAU, AzSU, etc. The vast majority know NOTHING outside of aviation and are just plain boring to talk to. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered vocational school grads. Are they somehow "better" than a pilot with a HS education who went straight into an aviation career? Of course not!

I couldn't disagree more. I went to the much maligned ERAU and got an Aeronautical Science Degree many years ago. I received a good education that prepared me well for my career as an airline pilot. It was/is useless for most professions outside of aviation. I took classes in meteorology, aerodynamics, aircraft performance, aircraft systems, global navigation, etc., etc. Along the way I took classes in the humanities and learned such things as technical report writing, public speaking, and grammar. I know the difference between "their" and "there" and "they're" when I write and communicate because I went to college and learned those skills. I use those skills every day that I work. As a college graduate, I would HOPE to be competing against a guy with simply a high school education. I think my ability to reason, to communicate, to write, and to display a technical knowledge of anything aviation related would show in the big job interview. To dismiss the hours, weeks, days, months, and years that I invested in my technical education as wasted in the pursuit of my profession is ignorant at best.

 

[chjack]

True. Current 250 min for the Commercial Certificate. In the dark ages, Part 141 schools were 190 hours...still think that is current. This would up it to 800 hours. I also thought this has to go through the NPRM process, too.

What article are you guys reading?? 800 for a comm??? Are you kidding me?? It would cost around $120k just to get a comm single at that price. Nobody would become a commercial pilot if that were the case. 800 hours is for right seat 121 only.

 

[acpilot]

Along the way I took classes in the humanities and learned such things as technical report writing, public speaking, and grammar. I know the difference between "their" and "there" and "they're" when I write and communicate because I went to college and learned those skills.

You really learned the difference between "their," "there," and "they're" in college?

I use those skills every day that I work. As a college graduate, I would HOPE to be competing against a guy with simply a high school education. I think my ability to reason, to communicate, to write, and to display a technical knowledge of anything aviation related would show in the big job interview.

All other things being equal, a four year should help. As I said before, I would not be against requiring a B.S. in the hard sciences or, if you don't have that, a graduate degree in something other than the fine arts. Would it be necessary for safe, efficient operation? No. Would it improve safety? Probably not. It would only narrow the field and cost airlines more money.

On the other hand, such a requirement would probably put most degree holding pilots out of the running, too. We can't have that, can we?

To dismiss the hours, weeks, days, months, and years that I invested in my technical education as wasted in the pursuit of my profession is ignorant at best.

Nobody is dismissing anything. Four year degrees are nice to have. I don't think anyone anywhere has ever said that a 4year is a bad thing.