Deal reached on new pilot hours

[Kalifornia]

Who in f%^& wants to read that rant!

No kidding, this master tool is the same guy who states a pilot shouldn't challenge a MEL despite blantant FARs saying the PIC has final authority to decide the safety of the flight. He is promoting the breaking of FARs. He is an old washed up anti-Sulley who didn't get his big break during his career and in now some pathetic attempt is trying to burn the profession and promote his non-excellence. I wonder if he's trolling on here and still private messaging people with a multi-page cry for recognition biography of himself. What a piss ant.

 

[Friend]

Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism. You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737. So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. That is the dilemma with FED EX, they have a chief pilot who thinks like you and hired all his military buddies and dont give an opportunity to any civilian pilot who worked harder and did his dues flying 135 and regional flying. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.

 

[pilotyip]

What I didn't answer your question?

Who in f%^& wants to read that rant!

I though you ask why we had training failures?

 

[pilotyip]

Counldn't agree more

Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.

Well trained mission capable pilots come from both the civilian and mil worlds. It is just in humble opinion that there is a uniformity in the mil not seen in the civ. Please don't stereotype the mil pilot anymore than I don't stereotype civilian pilots. You want to talk about IFR flying look at the mission of the P-3 flying out of Iceland in the winter, or out of the Azores almost anytime of the year and you find a guy who has spent a lot of time at low altitude night time in solid IFR conditions with one engine shut down. Sometimes in freezing rain. I flew 600 hours in 6 months day night all weather around Vietnam, mission had to go every day and night, Monsoons, TRW’s, fog 500 foot vis, we had fly. At age 26 with 1200 hours total time I was made an aircraft commander, I was well trained to do that mission worldwide. However I could not enter the traffic pattern at an uncontrolled airport. Different strokes for different pilots. That is the result of a great training program. Great training programs exisit in the civilian world, they just teach different things.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, nails it on the head about the putz called pilotyip!

 

[CX880]

Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism. You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737. So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. That is the dilemma with FED EX, they have a chief pilot who thinks like you and hired all his military buddies and dont give an opportunity to any civilian pilot who worked harder and did his dues flying 135 and regional flying. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.

Really? Is this what you're thinking of when you see the birds flyby you in the 152? Civ pilots are not god either, I'd rather have a military pilot fly my Fedex shipped beef jerky than some civ pilot so that it arrives safe.

 

[airjackson]

A friend of mines daughter has been in the guard flying C-130's for over two years. She has around 600 hrs, but she is now not airline material, But two guys with their CFI's, buy a C-150, fly it together day/VFR for 300 hours giving each other dual and they are instant 800 hour pilots, a hard number has nothing to do with skill. For example the 500 ME means nothing, we have hired military helos drivers into the right seat of the DA-20 Falcon. They got 10 hours ME to get their ratings. They out flew the 1500 ME guys coming out of the 135 world. Why excellent CRM skills, and excellent IFR skills. Plus just an opinion that the light control touch that a helo driver has is better adopted to a jet transition than muscling a PA-31 around the skies. BTW We had minor problem with one guy who tried pulling up on the right armrest to get back on gluide slope, we fixed that one

You're right, a hard number is not a direct reflection on skill. Neither is coming from the military a direct reflection on skill. I think we'd agree that there are a LOT of variables that contribute to making a skilled airman.
The worst pilot I've ever flown with was an ex C-130 driver, and a complete ******************************bag to top it off.
On the other hand, I've flown with some outstanding ex mil guys, both fixed wing and rotor.
Good news on the legistation. It's a starting point.

 

[centralpilot]

Pilotyip,

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism. You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737. So please dont have preconceived notion because you came from the military and think only military pilots are god endowment to the airlines. That is the dilemma with FED EX, they have a chief pilot who thinks like you and hired all his military buddies and dont give an opportunity to any civilian pilot who worked harder and did his dues flying 135 and regional flying. I believe any 121 Captain flying an RJ far exceeds any miltary pilot who has never really flown in IFR condition or in heavy busy traffic volume. Military pilots are pampered, dont get me wrong they are great pilots but thier ATTITUDE is what kills them and I find it objectionable with there philosophy that they deserve or have the right to fly a RJ.

Good luck getting your English proficiency endorsement.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Good luck getting your English proficiency endorsement.

And he wonders why he couldn't get on at the legacy's when all that was required was a pulse!
This doosh bag (pilotyip) just sent another love note via pm.
He is the epitimy of what's wrong with this industry. And at his age he should just bow out and retire, and do the industry a huge favor!

 

[pilotyip]

FI at its best

And he wonders why he couldn't get on at the legacy's when all that was required was a pulse!
This doosh bag (pilotyip) just sent another love note via pm.
He is the epitimy of what's wrong with this industry. And at his age he should just bow out and retire, and do the industry a huge favor!

does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

 

[CX880]

does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

I don't know, when people put the C-152 as the only aircraft they've flown it's often times sarcasm.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

What's the matter yip? Nobody to threaten to fire today?
Boring day at the office? Nobody to turn into the FAA?
Professionalism? You're off your rocker. This from the same scumbag who wrote in a 2 page letter he regrets not crossing the picket line at EAL!
Do the world a favor old man, get out while you still have some dignity, then you can sit around the shuffle board court and talk about what could have been.
AMF!

 

[Tristar]

You have to understand we are a bottom feeder. You wear a pager, you are on 30 minute call outs, you fly to strange places in the middle of the night, you de-ice airplanes all the time, and YIP is IFR almost all winter with icing conditions. During hiring booms nobody applies here unless they can not find a job someplace else. During these times our turnover is high.

{snip}


All of this may well be true, but it then points to the fact that your company is offering a compensation package which is inadequate to retain people given the working conditions. I realize that they have obviously found a balance which (at least for the time) allows them to maintain an influx of replacements is the current environment, but I must question the quality of the product you are providing in the "good times." Obviously it's fairly easy to get highly capable pilots right now, but I don't think there is any way you can honestly claim you have as safe an operation when times are good and what you have is a captain who "can not find a job someplace else" paired with a "500 CFI". If both attracting and retaining talented individuals isn't a high priority, then there is no way the company can be a "premier company."

It's oxymoronic to state in your first sentence that it is a bottom feeder, then shortly thereafter that it is a "premier company" and talk about how well your evaluations have gone. First, we all know that both FAA and third party evaluations are (to a large extent) window dressing. You can have all your i's dotted and t's crossed, but still not have a quality operation based on the people you have working "in the trenches." I'll grant that with those kinds of turnover numbers, your training department should certainly be proficient - but having that much turnover cannot be good for the continuity of the operation.

I know the argument is "we can't afford to pay more." If you are truly producing a premium product (particularly in the corporate charter world), you should be able to command some sort of premium price for it. Part of the cost of producing that product would be to offer a compensation package which is adequate to attract and retain employees. If you are failing to do so, then something is wrong. I understand a certain amount of turnover, but that's out of hand.

Back to the topic at hand, I too am disappointed that they aren't holding to the ATP standard for hiring at a 121 carrier. If that causes you some inconvenience in your hiring process, well that's unfortunate for you. I (like many others), believe that it is more appropriate for new pilots to gain initial experience somewhere other than in the right seat of a 121 airline. Yes, there are certainly those who can pass the ATP check ride at 300 hours, but simply the ability to maintain altitude on your steep turns and fly an approach well does not an experienced pilot make. The public rightly expects when they board an airliner that they are getting well qualified, experienced pilots. In fact, they've been getting cheated.

It seems to me that your company (and most others) wants to ever keep cheapening the product they sell, while claiming it's as good as it ever was. It isn't, and claiming it is doesn't change that fact.

If the current trend continues, there will come a time (it may already be here) when the best people (which is what the career has historically attracted) won't bother to go into it anymore, and virtually all of those available will be those who can't find a job in another career field, and there won't be enough of them. Then all of the airlines will then decry the lack of applicants and push for MPL. Then they will cheapen that up, until people won't even want to make the investment for a guaranteed job at 300 hours (it won't be worth it). What will they do then? Lobby the government to draft people to fly for them?

The current trend at the airlines amounts to nothing less than burning the furniture to keep the house warm. You have succeeded in getting labor ever cheaper, but it truly is a case of be careful what you wish for - because in the long run you are undercutting one of the key elements you need for your business to operate successfully.

Raising the minimum hours required to work at a 121 carrier is only one small part of what needs to take place to put things right in this industry. However it is a step in the right direction in that it at least attempts to force the airlines to hire pilots with more experience. It's certainly not a perfect solution, but again the airlines have made it quite clear they'd be content with a fresh commercial pilot in the left seat and a private pilot riding as an apprentice in the right seat (forgive me a bit of hyperbole). A limit has to be set somewhere, and the carriers have made it abundantly clear they are not willing to do so voluntarily.

PS - There's a button on the right side of your keyboard, often marked "Enter" or "Return." Judicious use of it allows you to create what we call "paragraphs" to separate different lines of thought. They make the written word easier to read and comprehend - you might want to look into using them in the future on lengthy posts (again, forgive me for being an @$$ - I just couldn't pass that one up).

 

[Tristar]

... I'd rather have a military pilot fly my Fedex shipped beef jerky than some civ pilot so that it arrives safe.

Please tell me I'm missing sarcasm here...

 

[Tristar]

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism.

No, it's all about real world experience, and no matter how you slice or dice it, a 300 hour pilot has very little of it. They may well do an excellent job manipulating the aircraft, but they simply don't the the experience to provide the resources for decision making which is a large element of what a professional pilot is being paid for. One of the key elements of CRM is the guy in the right seat having the ability to question the decisions made by the guy in the left seat - a 300 hour pilot does not have an adequate amount of experience to draw from to do so effectively.

You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737.

Great for your friend, not so great for the passengers who are getting half of the experience in the cockpit they think they are. This is nothing more than a glorified example of what Gulfstream does - you are doing flight instruction in an airliner (I've talked to several ex Gulfstream captains who freely admit they were often effectively flying single pilot). Again, not meeting the standard expected on an airliner.

I'm not buying into the whole military/civilian thing. The only intelligent thing that's been said about that topic is there are strong and weak individuals from both backgrounds.

 

[acpilot]

You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.

RE: Civ v. Mil

Mil pilots are good at flying Mil planes.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Civ pilots are trained to basic standards but can adapt quickly.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

 

[pilotyip]

more info

{snip}

All of this may well be true, but it then points to the fact that your company is offering a compensation package which is inadequate to retain people given the working conditions. .............duals isn't a high priority, then there is no way the company can be a "premier company."

PS - There's a button on the right side of your keyboard, often marked "Enter" or "Return." Judicious use of it allows you to create what we call "paragraphs" to separate different lines of thought. They make the written word easier to read and comprehend - you might want to look into using them in the future on lengthy posts (again, forgive me for being an @$$ - I just couldn't pass that one up).

We strive to be the best in our sector, we are proud of our pilots that move on. They go places, like DAL, NWA, FedEx, Spirit, AT, AA, UAL, NJ, JB, UPS.

You name it we have pilots that we have have trained that have gone to that airline. I think the facts that we have had no pilots go to our competitiors is a good sign that if you are going be a bottom feeder at KYIP in the on-demand business, JUS is as good as any.

Starting pay DA-20 F/O $35K/yr, 3rd yr DC-9 F/O $40K, 5 yr DA-20 CA $60K, 10th yr DC-9 CA $90K. Of course that is guarentee, many guys break $100K every year. And no pilots spend more time at home than our piltos who live in the KYIP area, gone maybe 5 days per month.

BTW we are going to the paragraph police on site? How did I do?

 

[Tristar]

We strive to be the best in our sector, we are proud of our pilots that move on. They go places, like DAL, NWA, FedEx, Spirit, AT, AA, UAL, NJ, JB, UPS.

You name it we have pilots that we have have trained that have gone to that airline. I think the facts that we have had no pilots go to our competitiors is a good sign that if you are going be a bottom feeder at KYIP in the on-demand business, JUS is as good as any.

Fair enough, and by one measurement perhaps that indicates you're not doing too badly. On the other hand, if you want to be (and claim to be) a premier operator, why not offer a compensation package which reduces the rate at which they go to other carriers? If you're truly the best in your sector, wouldn't that put you close to or at the level of the next sector? I'll grant if someone gets the call to FDX, UPS, DAL, that's hard to pass up - but why not offer something that makes them give pause to leaving their current position to go to a second or third tier airline? Wouldn't your operation benefit from retaining quality people who are already trained and working for you?

Starting pay DA-20 F/O $35K/yr, 3rd yr DC-9 F/O $40K, 5 yr DA-20 CA $60K, 10th yr DC-9 CA $90K. Of course that is guarentee, many guys break $100K every year. And no pilots spend more time at home than our piltos who live in the KYIP area, gone maybe 5 days per month.

I'm not up to date to comment on any rates other than DC-9 (and I'm not really on top of that, but I'll opine anyway). The starting rate for DA-20 FO doesn't strike me as too appalling, but the rest are rather low - I mean really, a 10 year DC-9 captain is only worth $90K?!? I don't know about the other QOL issues, not gone more than 5 days a month sounds great a first blush, but how does that work out if you're commuting (I'm presuming you don't pay relocation expenses)?

BTW we are going to the paragraph police on site? How did I do?

Much better, thank you! (Like I said - I had to bust your chops on that some)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the other items in my original post - particularly the concept of that the airlines current practices amounting to burning the furniture to heat the house. You've offered no rebuttal to that issue, nor the value of attempting to insure (by some means) that the airlines are required to hire crewmembers with appropriate and viable real world experience.

 

[pilotyip]

that is part of the probelm

Take the 298 civilians and give them the same slection process, budget and time to train as the MIL guys.....

Many many civilian pilots could not pass a military flight training entrance exam. There is a minimum amount of grey matter required to get into the programs. It is part of the screening process. You can see grey matter not working in weak pilots. There are pilots out there who can not be trained no matter how much money you spend upon them. Please do not make this into a pussing contest it is a fact of life.

 

[pilotyip]

Thanks

I'm not up to date to comment on any rates other than DC-9 (and I'm not really on top of that, but I'll opine anyway). The starting rate for DA-20 FO doesn't strike me as too appalling, but the rest are rather low - I mean really, a 10 year DC-9 captain is only worth $90K?!? I don't know about the other QOL issues, not gone more than 5 days a month sounds great a first blush, but how does that work out if you're commuting (I'm presuming you don't pay relocation expenses)?.

Thank you for a most kind reply, it is refreshing to see a civil exchange of ideas. Nobody puts on their wish list, "I want to work at JUS", I know I never did, but you find yourself at age 53 unemployed, you are like a man on a sinking ship you grab at anything that floats. JUS turned out to be a rather nice lifeboat for me. But I never planned on working in the on-demand business Many guys in my shoes. It is a commuters night mare. only 8 days off every 4 weeks, sit in a crash pad waiting for the pager to go off. High turnover in commuters, we are very open with the working conditions during the hiring process. We live in dog eat dog business where moving cargo goes to the lowest bidder, very difficult to increase revenue. about 3/4 of the on-demand operators have folded over the last 10 years. JUS was at a low in Dec 2008. Remember that pay is guarentee, and guarente for a DC-9 CA is only 45 hours at $150/hr. I will PM you with more details.