Deal reached on new pilot hours

[CX880]

does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

I don't know, when people put the C-152 as the only aircraft they've flown it's often times sarcasm.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

does anyone know who this guy is? The wonder of FI that some nameless soul hides behind a screen name with no accountibility and throws insults. Very professional says a lot about the high standards in interpersonal communications skills. No exchanges, no trading thoughts, no acceptance of anyone having a thought differnt that thier own. I bet it is a teenager lurking on the screen, what does anyone else think?

What's the matter yip? Nobody to threaten to fire today?
Boring day at the office? Nobody to turn into the FAA?
Professionalism? You're off your rocker. This from the same scumbag who wrote in a 2 page letter he regrets not crossing the picket line at EAL!
Do the world a favor old man, get out while you still have some dignity, then you can sit around the shuffle board court and talk about what could have been.
AMF!

 

[Tristar]

You have to understand we are a bottom feeder. You wear a pager, you are on 30 minute call outs, you fly to strange places in the middle of the night, you de-ice airplanes all the time, and YIP is IFR almost all winter with icing conditions. During hiring booms nobody applies here unless they can not find a job someplace else. During these times our turnover is high.

{snip}


All of this may well be true, but it then points to the fact that your company is offering a compensation package which is inadequate to retain people given the working conditions. I realize that they have obviously found a balance which (at least for the time) allows them to maintain an influx of replacements is the current environment, but I must question the quality of the product you are providing in the "good times." Obviously it's fairly easy to get highly capable pilots right now, but I don't think there is any way you can honestly claim you have as safe an operation when times are good and what you have is a captain who "can not find a job someplace else" paired with a "500 CFI". If both attracting and retaining talented individuals isn't a high priority, then there is no way the company can be a "premier company."

It's oxymoronic to state in your first sentence that it is a bottom feeder, then shortly thereafter that it is a "premier company" and talk about how well your evaluations have gone. First, we all know that both FAA and third party evaluations are (to a large extent) window dressing. You can have all your i's dotted and t's crossed, but still not have a quality operation based on the people you have working "in the trenches." I'll grant that with those kinds of turnover numbers, your training department should certainly be proficient - but having that much turnover cannot be good for the continuity of the operation.

I know the argument is "we can't afford to pay more." If you are truly producing a premium product (particularly in the corporate charter world), you should be able to command some sort of premium price for it. Part of the cost of producing that product would be to offer a compensation package which is adequate to attract and retain employees. If you are failing to do so, then something is wrong. I understand a certain amount of turnover, but that's out of hand.

Back to the topic at hand, I too am disappointed that they aren't holding to the ATP standard for hiring at a 121 carrier. If that causes you some inconvenience in your hiring process, well that's unfortunate for you. I (like many others), believe that it is more appropriate for new pilots to gain initial experience somewhere other than in the right seat of a 121 airline. Yes, there are certainly those who can pass the ATP check ride at 300 hours, but simply the ability to maintain altitude on your steep turns and fly an approach well does not an experienced pilot make. The public rightly expects when they board an airliner that they are getting well qualified, experienced pilots. In fact, they've been getting cheated.

It seems to me that your company (and most others) wants to ever keep cheapening the product they sell, while claiming it's as good as it ever was. It isn't, and claiming it is doesn't change that fact.

If the current trend continues, there will come a time (it may already be here) when the best people (which is what the career has historically attracted) won't bother to go into it anymore, and virtually all of those available will be those who can't find a job in another career field, and there won't be enough of them. Then all of the airlines will then decry the lack of applicants and push for MPL. Then they will cheapen that up, until people won't even want to make the investment for a guaranteed job at 300 hours (it won't be worth it). What will they do then? Lobby the government to draft people to fly for them?

The current trend at the airlines amounts to nothing less than burning the furniture to keep the house warm. You have succeeded in getting labor ever cheaper, but it truly is a case of be careful what you wish for - because in the long run you are undercutting one of the key elements you need for your business to operate successfully.

Raising the minimum hours required to work at a 121 carrier is only one small part of what needs to take place to put things right in this industry. However it is a step in the right direction in that it at least attempts to force the airlines to hire pilots with more experience. It's certainly not a perfect solution, but again the airlines have made it quite clear they'd be content with a fresh commercial pilot in the left seat and a private pilot riding as an apprentice in the right seat (forgive me a bit of hyperbole). A limit has to be set somewhere, and the carriers have made it abundantly clear they are not willing to do so voluntarily.

PS - There's a button on the right side of your keyboard, often marked "Enter" or "Return." Judicious use of it allows you to create what we call "paragraphs" to separate different lines of thought. They make the written word easier to read and comprehend - you might want to look into using them in the future on lengthy posts (again, forgive me for being an @$$ - I just couldn't pass that one up).

 

[Tristar]

... I'd rather have a military pilot fly my Fedex shipped beef jerky than some civ pilot so that it arrives safe.

Please tell me I'm missing sarcasm here...

 

[Tristar]

please dont be predisposition on your view of low time pilots, you seem to have an articualte personality, you imagine the regionals havent fashioned 300 hour pilot flying in the right seat of an RJ. And most of them do a marvelous job. Its all about individualism.

No, it's all about real world experience, and no matter how you slice or dice it, a 300 hour pilot has very little of it. They may well do an excellent job manipulating the aircraft, but they simply don't the the experience to provide the resources for decision making which is a large element of what a professional pilot is being paid for. One of the key elements of CRM is the guy in the right seat having the ability to question the decisions made by the guy in the left seat - a 300 hour pilot does not have an adequate amount of experience to draw from to do so effectively.

You stated yourself that in the 60's united airlines came to high schools to recruite pilots. You ever heard of Initial airline programs, that is what they are doing in Europe and the middle east. I had a friend who just got his commerical, instrument, multi engine rating and is now in training with a major airline in the middle east on the 737.

Great for your friend, not so great for the passengers who are getting half of the experience in the cockpit they think they are. This is nothing more than a glorified example of what Gulfstream does - you are doing flight instruction in an airliner (I've talked to several ex Gulfstream captains who freely admit they were often effectively flying single pilot). Again, not meeting the standard expected on an airliner.

I'm not buying into the whole military/civilian thing. The only intelligent thing that's been said about that topic is there are strong and weak individuals from both backgrounds.

 

[acpilot]

You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.

RE: Civ v. Mil

Mil pilots are good at flying Mil planes.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Civ pilots are trained to basic standards but can adapt quickly.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

 

[pilotyip]

more info

{snip}

All of this may well be true, but it then points to the fact that your company is offering a compensation package which is inadequate to retain people given the working conditions. .............duals isn't a high priority, then there is no way the company can be a "premier company."

PS - There's a button on the right side of your keyboard, often marked "Enter" or "Return." Judicious use of it allows you to create what we call "paragraphs" to separate different lines of thought. They make the written word easier to read and comprehend - you might want to look into using them in the future on lengthy posts (again, forgive me for being an @$$ - I just couldn't pass that one up).

We strive to be the best in our sector, we are proud of our pilots that move on. They go places, like DAL, NWA, FedEx, Spirit, AT, AA, UAL, NJ, JB, UPS.

You name it we have pilots that we have have trained that have gone to that airline. I think the facts that we have had no pilots go to our competitiors is a good sign that if you are going be a bottom feeder at KYIP in the on-demand business, JUS is as good as any.

Starting pay DA-20 F/O $35K/yr, 3rd yr DC-9 F/O $40K, 5 yr DA-20 CA $60K, 10th yr DC-9 CA $90K. Of course that is guarentee, many guys break $100K every year. And no pilots spend more time at home than our piltos who live in the KYIP area, gone maybe 5 days per month.

BTW we are going to the paragraph police on site? How did I do?

 

[Tristar]

We strive to be the best in our sector, we are proud of our pilots that move on. They go places, like DAL, NWA, FedEx, Spirit, AT, AA, UAL, NJ, JB, UPS.

You name it we have pilots that we have have trained that have gone to that airline. I think the facts that we have had no pilots go to our competitiors is a good sign that if you are going be a bottom feeder at KYIP in the on-demand business, JUS is as good as any.

Fair enough, and by one measurement perhaps that indicates you're not doing too badly. On the other hand, if you want to be (and claim to be) a premier operator, why not offer a compensation package which reduces the rate at which they go to other carriers? If you're truly the best in your sector, wouldn't that put you close to or at the level of the next sector? I'll grant if someone gets the call to FDX, UPS, DAL, that's hard to pass up - but why not offer something that makes them give pause to leaving their current position to go to a second or third tier airline? Wouldn't your operation benefit from retaining quality people who are already trained and working for you?

Starting pay DA-20 F/O $35K/yr, 3rd yr DC-9 F/O $40K, 5 yr DA-20 CA $60K, 10th yr DC-9 CA $90K. Of course that is guarentee, many guys break $100K every year. And no pilots spend more time at home than our piltos who live in the KYIP area, gone maybe 5 days per month.

I'm not up to date to comment on any rates other than DC-9 (and I'm not really on top of that, but I'll opine anyway). The starting rate for DA-20 FO doesn't strike me as too appalling, but the rest are rather low - I mean really, a 10 year DC-9 captain is only worth $90K?!? I don't know about the other QOL issues, not gone more than 5 days a month sounds great a first blush, but how does that work out if you're commuting (I'm presuming you don't pay relocation expenses)?

BTW we are going to the paragraph police on site? How did I do?

Much better, thank you! (Like I said - I had to bust your chops on that some)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the other items in my original post - particularly the concept of that the airlines current practices amounting to burning the furniture to heat the house. You've offered no rebuttal to that issue, nor the value of attempting to insure (by some means) that the airlines are required to hire crewmembers with appropriate and viable real world experience.

 

[pilotyip]

that is part of the probelm

Take the 298 civilians and give them the same slection process, budget and time to train as the MIL guys.....

Many many civilian pilots could not pass a military flight training entrance exam. There is a minimum amount of grey matter required to get into the programs. It is part of the screening process. You can see grey matter not working in weak pilots. There are pilots out there who can not be trained no matter how much money you spend upon them. Please do not make this into a pussing contest it is a fact of life.

 

[pilotyip]

Thanks

I'm not up to date to comment on any rates other than DC-9 (and I'm not really on top of that, but I'll opine anyway). The starting rate for DA-20 FO doesn't strike me as too appalling, but the rest are rather low - I mean really, a 10 year DC-9 captain is only worth $90K?!? I don't know about the other QOL issues, not gone more than 5 days a month sounds great a first blush, but how does that work out if you're commuting (I'm presuming you don't pay relocation expenses)?.

Thank you for a most kind reply, it is refreshing to see a civil exchange of ideas. Nobody puts on their wish list, "I want to work at JUS", I know I never did, but you find yourself at age 53 unemployed, you are like a man on a sinking ship you grab at anything that floats. JUS turned out to be a rather nice lifeboat for me. But I never planned on working in the on-demand business Many guys in my shoes. It is a commuters night mare. only 8 days off every 4 weeks, sit in a crash pad waiting for the pager to go off. High turnover in commuters, we are very open with the working conditions during the hiring process. We live in dog eat dog business where moving cargo goes to the lowest bidder, very difficult to increase revenue. about 3/4 of the on-demand operators have folded over the last 10 years. JUS was at a low in Dec 2008. Remember that pay is guarentee, and guarente for a DC-9 CA is only 45 hours at $150/hr. I will PM you with more details.