Deal reached on new pilot hours

[ualdriver]

I thought this was a thread about new work rules or something.

This is Flightinfo.com. You should know better than that

 

[Tristar]

This is Flightinfo.com. You should know better than that

True, but we still haven't brought up gerbils...

 

[Tristar]

It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing could is further from the truth. The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies.

We are in complete agreement on this point - and further I agree that a degree (from an aviation university or in aviation) should meet these same criteria.

I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry.

That's a selective understatement. It's a defacto requirement at virtually all majors, and many other carriers. It's hardly a "select few."

If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary.

Particularly if you enjoy starting over at the bottom of the industry and payscale every few years when the carrier you are working for folds. Odds are you aren't going to make $70-$100K per year, year in and year out in the non-skeds, second and third tier freight haulers, they are likely to go out of business, and then you're starting over from zero (sound familiar?) - made even more difficult with no degree. The debt from the loans from a real degree may not only help you get a job, more importantly it may help you get a job doing something you can actually make a living at (which often is NOT flying).

Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes.

What if memorizing limitations or red border items isn't important to them, or perhaps having an understanding of the FAR's. No lack of intelligence, just not important to them - they just want to get on with yanking and banking. It's a question of drive and discipline - if you don't possess a certain requisite amount you aren't going to fare well in aviation or life.

I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. My advice is go to school part time or community college and fly, pilots get hired because they have flight time. Flt time moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step.

{stepping back in time a few years...}
"I have seen too many non-degreed doctors reach a good career position with out a degree. My advice is go to read medical books part time and catch leeches, doctors get hired because they have a large jar of leeches. Having let a lot of blood and owning thick wooden implements to bite on while sawing off limbs moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step."

You can go to school part time with a full time flying job, you cannot build real flight time while going to school full time. I have seen non-degreed guys go to the Nationals in their mid-20’s.

What did they do when their national went out of business? Again, no one is arguing that it's necessary to operate the aircraft - it's a question of personal development as well as industry enhancement.

I guess we are getting very politically correct and having an option different that someone else’s is not allowed. I continually see the “If you do not have college degree you are not as good as me” I can not accept that, I just too many people who I admire who do not have degrees.

I wasn't aware that you weren't being allowed to have your opinion - in fact the very presence of this segment of the thread testifies to the contrary. It has nothing to do with not being as "good as" anyone else - it's a question of what we want the industry to look like in the future.

Literacy was once the exception not the rule, shall we advocate that it's not necessary because many illiterate people have "reached good career positions," or because they are good people worthy of admiration? Hyperbole perhaps, but it points out the absurdity of the argument.

BTW aT JUS almost every pilot has a college degree, because everyone has them.

EXACTLY. Now - which ones are "stuck" at JUS because the "can't get hired anywhere else?"

 

[phishn@daves]

The military flies more than fighter jets! And they actually fly in actual IFR!!

Good point. I was speaking of him.

 

[Caveman]

No, actually you don't "get that." You have NO IDEA how much I spent to go to ERAU. Not a clue. And the fact that you threw 100K out there shows me how far off base you are. So actually, you're the one being proven WRONG, along with all those other ridiculous comments you made about me. You don't even know me. And if you and your buddies think that young people who attend aeronautical universities (whether you think they're worth the 100K or not) and spend 4 years of their lives getting a very technical degree learn *NOTHING* that makes them a better professional pilot, I just don't know what to say.

Further, I never said you have to have a college education to become a pilot. Personally, I think it would be foolish for a young person today, graduating from high school, to not get at least a Bachelor's Degree. Further, I wouldn't recommend ERAU now, either, simply because of how much it costs. In my opinion, there are skills that you learn while attending a good university/community college/whatever that transfer to life and one's profession. Again, if one doesn't "get that," and dismisses that out of hand, then what do you say?

Pot meet kettle. Go back and reread what you posted and tell me again who was the one that started posting crap about someone they don't even know. You did and Kalifornia did. I gave one example (me) of someone that made it to a major without a HS degree. It was you and Kalifornia that started the personal attacks. You reap what you sow pal.

I stand by my statement. You (or Daddy) paid way more than was necessary to learn how to fly at Riddle. I know it, everybody that isn't a Riddle grad knows it and you do too. There's no way you'll convince me that attending Riddle made you a more well rounded person and improved your liberal arts education. It's a technical school all about airplanes and it's attended primarily by white middle class young men. Where's the cultural diversity and liberal arts exposure in that? That degree is worthless outside aviation. It did four things for you: It taught you how to fly; it allows you to check the college degree box on the employment app; it gives you a good alumni pool to network from; and it made your (or Daddy's) bank account significantly smaller. If you think for a moment anybody outside avaition will give a damn about the wonderful and diverse education you got at Riddle you are delusional.

 

[Caveman]

You misunderstood the article. A commerical can be had at 250 hrs. which is the minimum time (or certificate) allowed to hold a 121 FO spot. The proposal states that you can still acquire the commerical at 250 but there would be a minimum amount of time (800 hrs.) before you could apply and be hired by an airline. It's a hiring minimum - not a certification minimum.

Perhaps college might've fortified your reading comprehension.

These are the first two paragraphs from the article:

"Senators have reached a compromise to dramatically increase the number of flight hours new commercial copilots need to get a license, though the figure falls short of what the group Families of Continental Flight 3407 was seeking.

Under a deal brokered by Sen. Charles E. Schumer and announced Friday, new co-pilots would have to have 800 hours of flight experience in specific, rigorous conditions, up from the current 250 hours of general experience."

If they aren't talking about a commercial certificate, what other kind of 'license' are they talking about. It appears to me they are proposing increasing the minimum hours to 800 for a commercial certificate.

The wording is ambiguous (look it up). That's why I asked the question. Pay attention.

 

[pilotyip]

EXACTLY. Now - which ones are "stuck" at JUS because the "can't get hired anywhere else?"

The upper middle aged ones are the ones that stay, because they are making near $100K, and even with a degree at age 55, where are they going to go? The one that left were a mix of degreed and non-degreed, thte non-degreed guys went places like UAL, JB, Spirit, NJ, AT, SWA just to name a few. My Gad how did they slipt throught cracks, because they were great guys, excellent sticks and just fun ot be around. The kinda guys you want to hire, so you don't let the degree get in the way.

 

[152SIC]

These are the first two paragraphs from the article:

"Senators have reached a compromise to dramatically increase the number of flight hours new commercial copilots need to get a license, though the figure falls short of what the group Families of Continental Flight 3407 was seeking.

Under a deal brokered by Sen. Charles E. Schumer and announced Friday, new co-pilots would have to have 800 hours of flight experience in specific, rigorous conditions, up from the current 250 hours of general experience."

If they aren't talking about a commercial certificate, what other kind of 'license' are they talking about. It appears to me they are proposing increasing the minimum hours to 800 for a commercial certificate.

The wording is ambiguous (look it up). That's why I asked the question. Pay attention.

I also think that the 800 hours is for a commercial license.

http://www.ainalerts.com/ainalerts/alerts/031810.html

 

[pilotyip]

800 Comm requirement No Way!

I also think that the 800 hours is for a commercial license.

http://www.ainalerts.com/ainalerts/alerts/031810.html

maybe this reads you must have 800 to be a SIC, but you can still be a 91, CFI, VFR 135 PIC? what do you think? But if it is 800 for a Comm, what does a pilot do for 800 hours? No CFIing, No Banner Towing, no sightseeing, it will nearly kill all progression except for rich people.

 

[acpilot]

Are you on acid?? You are the only one that keeps arguing against your self. No one else is saying that it's required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane!

And I agree ERAU should not be considered a formal education. How beneficial is 2 hours of FMS 101 every other day????

I re-read my posts and I can see how it looks like I'm arguing against myself. I'm sure some folks know what I'm saying, however.

If efficient, safe operation isn't an issue, why is there even an issue with HS v 4year?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I also think that the 800 hours is for a commercial license.

http://www.ainalerts.com/ainalerts/alerts/031810.html

While the article (you cite) does indeed state that it is for certification purposes, I believe that the few articles cited in this thread are written by journalists who are mixing up terminology.

This would effectively mean CFI's or banner towers would have to receive 800 hours in order to receive these jobs.

The spirit or intent of the reform seeks to address 121 or airline operations, and in doing so, seeks to change the minimum hours and experience breakdown for employment purposes. These higher requirements would need to be accomplished outside of the 121 environment while still possessing a commercial certificate.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

If they aren't talking about a commercial certificate, what other kind of 'license' are they talking about. It appears to me they are proposing increasing the minimum hours to 800 for a commercial certificate.

The wording is ambiguous (look it up). That's why I asked the question. Pay attention.

Sorry if I came across as rude. I agree the wording is is ambiguous. However, I think these journalists are mixing terminology up.

 

[sayrejm]

Go to college... yes. But for the love of God, take half the money you would spend at Riddle and get a degree in something useful and then take the other half and learn to fly part 61. You get the same damn green piece of plastic plus a backup plan.

 

[Caveman]

Sorry if I came across as rude. I agree the wording is is ambiguous. However, I think these journalists are mixing terminology up.

Thanks for the apology. Their choice of words is confusing. I'm not sure what they are really proposing.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

This is all funny, especially since many 91/135 jet operators employ SICs with less than 1500 hrs. Somehow they're exempt. Are they only concerned about PAX in the air or people on the ground (as in a crash). This is a public relations placation for the masses who overwhelmingly travel by airliner. I'm all for an ATP certificate before siting right seat. It's just so logical. The airlines themselves actually fought against this. Yet, they hold safety in the highest regard.