Deal reached on new pilot hours

[Erlanger]

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/13/986439/deal-made-on-hours-of-training.html

http://www.wgrz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=75246

 

[hou757]

I think 1000 hours would be a good compromise for this bill.

 

[Erlanger]

I think 1000 hours would be a good compromise for this bill.

We need it even higher to create a pilot shortage and maybe we'll get payed what we deserve and then some.

 

[Tarzan]

We need it even higher to create a pilot shortage and maybe we'll get payed what we deserve and then some.

Glad to hear you guys are doing your part.

 

[hou757]

I'll just be glad to see an end to the 300 hour new hire into a jet. I wonder how this will effect Gulfstreams FO program? hmmm.

 

[n757st]

"specific rigorous conditions such as icing... ". Now, I am all for upping the hours of first officers, but how is someone flying charter etc in Florida or down south supposed to pull that off? This could be interesting.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

We need it even higher to create a pilot shortage and maybe we'll get payed what we deserve and then some.

I would like to get PAID more! Don't know about "PAYED"

 

[BigLebowski]

I'll probably get blasted for this. I think 1500TT and 500ME would be a good start. It will give you the time to instruct (actually learn a little from it) and then move on to flying a light twin (part 135) to really learn how to fly in the weather.

The "real" experience I gained from being a check instructor, to single pilot IFR was amazing and I couldn't imagine skipping over that in my career. True it would have been cool to get an rj job right out of college (if anyone was hiring at the time), but I wouldn't give up my experiences for anything.

 

[pilotyip]

A friend of mines daughter has been in the guard flying C-130's for over two years. She has around 600 hrs, but she is now not airline material, But two guys with their CFI's, buy a C-150, fly it together day/VFR for 300 hours giving each other dual and they are instant 800 hour pilots, a hard number has nothing to do with skill. For example the 500 ME means nothing, we have hired military helos drivers into the right seat of the DA-20 Falcon. They got 10 hours ME to get their ratings. They out flew the 1500 ME guys coming out of the 135 world. Why excellent CRM skills, and excellent IFR skills. Plus just an opinion that the light control touch that a helo driver has is better adopted to a jet transition than muscling a PA-31 around the skies. BTW We had minor problem with one guy who tried pulling up on the right armrest to get back on gluide slope, we fixed that one

 

[PCL_128]

This compromise basically renders the provisions useless. Very few pilots were ever actually getting hired with less than 800 hours. The average was probably in the 1000-1200 hour range. We needed the 1500 hours to make a significant impact. Disappointing to say the least.

 

[Max Q]

Pilotyip: So you disagree that there should be an increased minimum?

We can go back and forth all day about where the line should be drawn but I think we can both agree that the line is not to be drawn at 250 hours. Additionally, it is still up to the employer to decide who has the more impressive resume. There is no replacement for experience. I doubt an airline is going to give preference to two CPL's with 800 hours in a 152.

 

[e=mc2]

Easy for PCL 128 to say - since he bought his flying job to start with!

 

[Balou]

Your asking for logic from the goverment, politicians, airlines and the general public ?
Good Luck !!

 

[pilotyip]

yes I disagree

Pilotyip: So you disagree that there should be an increased minimum?

We can go back and forth all day about where the line should be drawn but I think we can both agree that the line is not to be drawn at 250 hours. Additionally, it is still up to the employer to decide who has the more impressive resume. There is no replacement for experience. I doubt an airline is going to give preference to two CPL's with 800 hours in a 152.

Of course I disagree, a hard number takes away the ability to make a rational decision. In my case above, in times of a hiring boom, the airline by regulation would be forced to hire the 800 CFI's, and bypass the C-130 pilot because she only has 600 hours.

 

[OCP]

Of course I disagree, a hard number takes away the ability to make a rational decision. In my case above, in times of a hiring boom, the airline by regulation would be forced to hire the 800 CFI's, and bypass the C-130 pilot because she only has 600 hours.

The problem is there are VERY few of the example you use and TONS of 300hr people who shouldn't be flying a jet. So to help increase safety they will raise the mins. It will sacrifice the few for the many.

 

[Max Q]

Of course I disagree, a hard number takes away the ability to make a rational decision. In my case above, in times of a hiring boom, the airline by regulation would be forced to hire the 800 CFI's, and bypass the C-130 pilot because she only has 600 hours.

Right, it's the "hard number" that takes away the airline's ability to make a rational decision...

If it comes down to choosing between a 600 hour C-130 pilot and an 800 hour CPL, I would say the airlines have a much larger issue.

 

[buscap]

The next hiring boom will not be a boom really. It will be a retirement driven trickle-up, which will not have enough impact to change the industry as the last 'boom' did. The last boom saw the end of pay for training and a raising of the bar with regards to starting pay and QOl for new hires.

When the next real hiring boom does happen some school will come up with a program deigned to meet the letter of this law, with no real improvements to the pilot-product pooped out at the end. Or maybe the regionals will talk the FAA into letting them run an in-house Gulfstream-esque training program.

This law is written by folks whose only concern is getting reelected and will have no raising of the bar effect, as it relates to pay or pilot proficiency.

Let's face it, this is eye wash and rightly so. Like it or not, everyone is inexperienced at what they do, at some point in their career. Every surgeon has their first cut. Every sniper has their first kill. Every hooker has their first trick.

Good training can close the competence-experience gap, but never eliminate it. But we all know this bill is not about closing the competence gap. This bill is about politicians being able to say "Well, we did something."

And the truth of the matter is, a real solution to this problem is not available in any form of legislation.

 

[Flybywire44]

A friend of mines daughter has been in the guard flying C-130's for over two years. She has around 600 hrs, but she is now not airline material, But two guys with their CFI's, buy a C-150, fly it together day/VFR for 300 hours giving each other dual and they are instant 800 hour pilots, a hard number has nothing to do with skill. For example the 500 ME means nothing, we have hired military helos drivers into the right seat of the DA-20 Falcon. They got 10 hours ME to get their ratings. They out flew the 1500 ME guys coming out of the 135 world. Why excellent CRM skills, and excellent IFR skills. Plus just an opinion that the light control touch that a helo driver has is better adopted to a jet transition than muscling a PA-31 around the skies. BTW We had minor problem with one guy who tried pulling up on the right armrest to get back on gluide slope, we fixed that one

People like her will have to be ambitious and instruct on the side also.

 

[Lynxman]

You cant instruct when no one want's to fly anymore.

 

[bacardi]

I'll probably get blasted for this. I think 1500TT and 500ME would be a good start. It will give you the time to instruct (actually learn a little from it) and then move on to flying a light twin (part 135) to really learn how to fly in the weather.

The "real" experience I gained from being a check instructor, to single pilot IFR was amazing and I couldn't imagine skipping over that in my career. True it would have been cool to get an rj job right out of college (if anyone was hiring at the time), but I wouldn't give up my experiences for anything.

Thank you. I agree 100%

 

[ualdriver]

Sounds like a step in the right direction. Like all things political, it's a compromise and likely there will be more compromise when this provision has to be brought into harmony with the House.

Yip, your example may be valid where this legislation will not serve everyone 100% of the time, but two points. One, I'd rather have a 800 hour minimum (or something higher than comm. pilot mins) and have a few people like your C130 friend fall through the cracks instead of what we have now. Two, your friend chose to be a military pilot and jumped through a bunch of hoops to be there and that's great. If she wants to be an airline pilot, then she can fly for LESS THAN another year to get her 800 hours or get a job on the side and fly. If she wanted to be an airline pilot in the first place, she could have skipped the military route, flight instructed for a year or so, and then applied for a job at your airline.

 

[JumpersAway]

I find it ironic that people have to come to an airline to build time, so that they can meet 135 minimums to fly checks in a cherokee 6 at night in IFR. Anyone else see something wrong with this picture?

This legislation is just whitewash. No effect on safety whatsoever. I've flown with high time guys that would turn me white- I've also flown with low time folks that were really on the ball.

As for those that hope and rely on minimums to raise their wages- not going to work and your logic is faulted. The ONLY way wages will increase is to fight for it. Pilots will have to eventually decide to step up and TELL managments what we and our skills are worth. Simply waiting on circumstances outside of our control to make us more marketable and compensated is for the weak.

 

[DoinTime]

This compromise basically renders the provisions useless. Very few pilots were ever actually getting hired with less than 800 hours. The average was probably in the 1000-1200 hour range. We needed the 1500 hours to make a significant impact. Disappointing to say the least.

I don't know about every airlines circumstances but SIGNIFICANT numbers of sub-800 (even sub-500) hour pilots were hired over the past several years.

This legislation will be useful to further discourage new generations of pilots from pursuing this career path and to fend off the advancement of the multi-crew pilot license here in the US. Without the military as a source of pilots and with the civilian supply side choked off due the astronomical cost and protracted time frame of getting a job I think you will see a pilot crisis world-wide in 5-10 years. Watch out for the age 70 rule!

 

[pilotyip]

tow banners

Sounds like a step in the right direction. Like all things political, it's a compromise and likely there will be more compromise when this provision has to be brought into harmony with the House.

Yip, your example may be valid where this legislation will not serve everyone 100% of the time, but two points. One, I'd rather have a 800 hour minimum (or something higher than comm. pilot mins) and have a few people like your C130 friend fall through the cracks instead of what we have now. Two, your friend chose to be a military pilot and jumped through a bunch of hoops to be there and that's great. If she wants to be an airline pilot, then she can fly for LESS THAN another year to get her 800 hours or get a job on the side and fly. If she wanted to be an airline pilot in the first place, she could have skipped the military route, flight instructed for a year or so, and then applied for a job at your airline.

I told her to go to MYR and tow banners for a summer, then she could be a real airline pilot

 

[Tarzan]

This legislation is just whitewash. No effect on safety whatsoever. I've flown with high time guys that would turn me white- I've also flown with low time folks that were really on the ball.

I find this to be a large problem that we have effective done to ourselves. While we all want some sort of protection against personal vendettas and an overzealous fed, we end up stuck with pilots that should not be in a airplane let alone command of a Part 121 plane. Seniority alone should not dictate what seat a pilot should be able to hold. If the same pilot keeps coming up again and again as a problem, stick them back in the right seat or back on the street after all attempts to correct an shortcoming have failed. We need to quit defending these sorts of actions by pilots and let the those who've earned it, wash out.

 

[NotTooBad]

So these minimums require your future FO's to just have a set number of hours. The guy who flew the grand canyon in a 152 for 1,000 hours is now mandated to be more qualified than the guy that has 700 hours in a high performance twin in and of the north east. I'm with those that disagree entirely. No hiring minimums should exist other than legal qualifications. Very strong practical tests should be the filter.

 

[sweptback]

So these minimums require your future FO's to just have a set number of hours. The guy who flew the grand canyon in a 152 for 1,000 hours is now mandated to be more qualified than the guy that has 700 hours in a high performance twin in and of the north east. I'm with those that disagree entirely. No hiring minimums should exist other than legal qualifications. Very strong practical tests should be the filter.

The problem with that is during times of high demand and low supply (2006-2007) the "very strong practical tests" go out the window and the airlines hire whoever walks through the door.

At least this will give a floor to the hiring mins. No going to Colgan at 350 hours to get the time to go to SkyWest or Republic... which is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[no1pilot2000]

There should be more checkrides beyond that which is currently required for a given rating or certificate. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over time. Right now, it's just alot of politicians talking. Let's see how long it takes for this talk to turn to actions.

 

[bizicmo]

So these minimums require your future FO's to just have a set number of hours. The guy who flew the grand canyon in a 152 for 1,000 hours is now mandated to be more qualified than the guy that has 700 hours in a high performance twin in and of the north east. I'm with those that disagree entirely. No hiring minimums should exist other than legal qualifications. Very strong practical tests should be the filter.

Isn't that what they are doing, changing the legal qualifications? Before the legal qualification to get hired was a commercial ticket and now its going to be the ticket plus hours.

 

[nerjdriver]

I like the quote about the entry level job being an airline pilot now........funny they dont want pilots to have entry level jobs at regionals but they are willing to accept entry level pay at them