Deal reached on new pilot hours

[acpilot]

You lost all rational decision making on your part when you stated in these forums you thought high school drop outs can fly professionally just fine. You are a demon to aviation safety.

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.

RE: Civ v. Mil

Mil pilots are good at flying Mil planes.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Civ pilots are trained to basic standards but can adapt quickly.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

 

[pilotyip]

more info

{snip}

All of this may well be true, but it then points to the fact that your company is offering a compensation package which is inadequate to retain people given the working conditions. .............duals isn't a high priority, then there is no way the company can be a "premier company."

PS - There's a button on the right side of your keyboard, often marked "Enter" or "Return." Judicious use of it allows you to create what we call "paragraphs" to separate different lines of thought. They make the written word easier to read and comprehend - you might want to look into using them in the future on lengthy posts (again, forgive me for being an @$$ - I just couldn't pass that one up).

We strive to be the best in our sector, we are proud of our pilots that move on. They go places, like DAL, NWA, FedEx, Spirit, AT, AA, UAL, NJ, JB, UPS.

You name it we have pilots that we have have trained that have gone to that airline. I think the facts that we have had no pilots go to our competitiors is a good sign that if you are going be a bottom feeder at KYIP in the on-demand business, JUS is as good as any.

Starting pay DA-20 F/O $35K/yr, 3rd yr DC-9 F/O $40K, 5 yr DA-20 CA $60K, 10th yr DC-9 CA $90K. Of course that is guarentee, many guys break $100K every year. And no pilots spend more time at home than our piltos who live in the KYIP area, gone maybe 5 days per month.

BTW we are going to the paragraph police on site? How did I do?

 

[Tristar]

We strive to be the best in our sector, we are proud of our pilots that move on. They go places, like DAL, NWA, FedEx, Spirit, AT, AA, UAL, NJ, JB, UPS.

You name it we have pilots that we have have trained that have gone to that airline. I think the facts that we have had no pilots go to our competitiors is a good sign that if you are going be a bottom feeder at KYIP in the on-demand business, JUS is as good as any.

Fair enough, and by one measurement perhaps that indicates you're not doing too badly. On the other hand, if you want to be (and claim to be) a premier operator, why not offer a compensation package which reduces the rate at which they go to other carriers? If you're truly the best in your sector, wouldn't that put you close to or at the level of the next sector? I'll grant if someone gets the call to FDX, UPS, DAL, that's hard to pass up - but why not offer something that makes them give pause to leaving their current position to go to a second or third tier airline? Wouldn't your operation benefit from retaining quality people who are already trained and working for you?

Starting pay DA-20 F/O $35K/yr, 3rd yr DC-9 F/O $40K, 5 yr DA-20 CA $60K, 10th yr DC-9 CA $90K. Of course that is guarentee, many guys break $100K every year. And no pilots spend more time at home than our piltos who live in the KYIP area, gone maybe 5 days per month.

I'm not up to date to comment on any rates other than DC-9 (and I'm not really on top of that, but I'll opine anyway). The starting rate for DA-20 FO doesn't strike me as too appalling, but the rest are rather low - I mean really, a 10 year DC-9 captain is only worth $90K?!? I don't know about the other QOL issues, not gone more than 5 days a month sounds great a first blush, but how does that work out if you're commuting (I'm presuming you don't pay relocation expenses)?

BTW we are going to the paragraph police on site? How did I do?

Much better, thank you! (Like I said - I had to bust your chops on that some)

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the other items in my original post - particularly the concept of that the airlines current practices amounting to burning the furniture to heat the house. You've offered no rebuttal to that issue, nor the value of attempting to insure (by some means) that the airlines are required to hire crewmembers with appropriate and viable real world experience.

 

[pilotyip]

that is part of the probelm

Take the 298 civilians and give them the same slection process, budget and time to train as the MIL guys.....

Many many civilian pilots could not pass a military flight training entrance exam. There is a minimum amount of grey matter required to get into the programs. It is part of the screening process. You can see grey matter not working in weak pilots. There are pilots out there who can not be trained no matter how much money you spend upon them. Please do not make this into a pussing contest it is a fact of life.

 

[pilotyip]

Thanks

I'm not up to date to comment on any rates other than DC-9 (and I'm not really on top of that, but I'll opine anyway). The starting rate for DA-20 FO doesn't strike me as too appalling, but the rest are rather low - I mean really, a 10 year DC-9 captain is only worth $90K?!? I don't know about the other QOL issues, not gone more than 5 days a month sounds great a first blush, but how does that work out if you're commuting (I'm presuming you don't pay relocation expenses)?.

Thank you for a most kind reply, it is refreshing to see a civil exchange of ideas. Nobody puts on their wish list, "I want to work at JUS", I know I never did, but you find yourself at age 53 unemployed, you are like a man on a sinking ship you grab at anything that floats. JUS turned out to be a rather nice lifeboat for me. But I never planned on working in the on-demand business Many guys in my shoes. It is a commuters night mare. only 8 days off every 4 weeks, sit in a crash pad waiting for the pager to go off. High turnover in commuters, we are very open with the working conditions during the hiring process. We live in dog eat dog business where moving cargo goes to the lowest bidder, very difficult to increase revenue. about 3/4 of the on-demand operators have folded over the last 10 years. JUS was at a low in Dec 2008. Remember that pay is guarentee, and guarente for a DC-9 CA is only 45 hours at $150/hr. I will PM you with more details.

 

[skyaddict]

{snip}


Raising the minimum hours required to work at a 121 carrier is only one small part of what needs to take place to put things right in this industry. However it is a step in the right direction in that it at least attempts to force the airlines to hire pilots with more experience. It's certainly not a perfect solution, but again the airlines have made it quite clear they'd be content with a fresh commercial pilot in the left seat and a private pilot riding as an apprentice in the right seat (forgive me a bit of hyperbole). A limit has to be set somewhere, and the carriers have made it abundantly clear they are not willing to do so voluntarily.

Excellent post-- it is all about establishing some kind of minimal floor. Quite apart from experience, to the extent that a floor modifies the supply of regional fodder even a little bit, pay and work rules will be improved, which will benefit safety. Also badly needed is legislation that prevents those companies, whose logos and names appear on regional hulls and the passengers tickets and boarding passes, from using a few sentences of fine print to whitewash themselves of any liability from their regional partners. Shared liability for accidents would trigger more safety audits and hopefully more mentoring of their regional partners operating procedures, as well as training programs.

 

[Tristar]

Also badly needed is legislation that prevents those companies, whose logos and names appear on regional hulls and the passengers tickets and boarding passes, from using a few sentences of fine print to whitewash themselves of any liability from their regional partners. Shared liability for accidents would trigger more safety audits and hopefully more mentoring of their regional partners operating procedures, as well as training programs.

Agreed completely. I'll add, and their hiring practices.

 

[Quimby]

There should be more checkrides beyond that which is currently required for a given rating or certificate. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out over time. Right now, it's just alot of politicians talking. Let's see how long it takes for this talk to turn to actions.

There's the problem. Scoundrels, crooks and thieves trying to regulate an industry they know nothing about.

 

[Quimby]

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.

RE: Civ v. Mil

Mil pilots are good at flying Mil planes.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Civ pilots are trained to basic standards but can adapt quickly.
Most can be trained to fly commercially.
Most of them need to check their ego.

Pilots have ego's? Weird...

 

[CFI2766]

As you said there is better chance that the 800 military pilot is better, so go with odds. BTW Only my humble experience, but having hired 47 military background pilots in last 12 years, only one failure, 298 civilian background hires, 27 failures. When you hired a mil pilot they are pretty much cookie cutter, you know what you are getting, when you hire a civilian you can get a superb pilot better than anything you have ever seen and you can also get something that should never be near an airplane unescorted.

As Col. Potter would have said: "Horse Hockey"....

I strongly suspect that you can't make a scientific generalization because the numbers are too large. How many people are separated/retired from the mil route and seeking employment in the 121 world per year? How many straight civilian trained pilots are seeking employment per year? The success to failure ration of each of these two samples of the overall population is what should be compared in this budding 'mil vs. civilian' route debate.

When you get a winged mil guy seeking the first professional civilian aviation job, generally they've already made it through one rigorous screening process. For the civilian guy, the first screening process usually is basic indoc through the sims of the their first employer.

If you want to make your argument have some statistic validity, compare the number of UPT washouts to the number of washouts in the 121 world at the regionals. I suspect the numbers would be quite similar. In fairness, however, I would have NO way of proving this theory.

 

[CFI2766]

I think it counter-productive and asinine to deride 'pilotyip'. Clearly, he has views that are counter to the vast majority of professional pilots. Obviously, he is compensated by the amount of work he can get out of pilots, not by the quality of pilot he produces and retains. This makes him identical to the management teams of every airline out there.

It would make more sense to learn from him, whether he believes that he is teaching or not, so that you know what to expect when dealing with your own management.

 

[pilotyip]

Excellent post

As Col. Potter would have said: "Horse Hockey"....
When you get a winged mil guy seeking the first professional civilian aviation job, generally they've already made it through one rigorous screening process. For the civilian guy, the first screening process usually is basic indoc through the sims of the their first employer.......If you want to make your argument have some statistic validity, compare the number of UPT washouts to the number of washouts in the 121 world at the regionals. I suspect the numbers would be quite similar. In fairness, however, I would have NO way of proving this theory.

Hit the nail right on the head, but there is another screening process, once winged they have to become mission qualified. There is a screening process at the Replacement Air Group, or what ever they call them today. There is a screening process in the squadron as you move from 3P to 2P to PPC, or section, division lead etc., the CO steps in and says I don't want that guy flying as PPC I don't think he can do the job. So beyond the application process, the UPT experience, there is the squadron grooming experience. This guy has been looked at a lot by the time he tries to get his first civilian job. BTW I know of a few who failed to make PPC, but still went on do successful airline careers, why because at the time they were hired they were the most qualified pilot available.

 

[buscap]

Hit the nail right on the head, but there is another screening process, once winged they have to become mission qualified. There is a screening process at the Replacement Air Group, or what ever they call them today. There is a screening process in the squadron as you move from 3P to 2P to PPC, or section, division lead etc., the CO steps in and says I don't want that guy flying as PPC I don't think he can do the job. So beyond the application process, the UPT experience, there is the squadron grooming experience. This guy has been looked at a lot by the time he tries to get his first civilian job. BTW I know of a few who failed to make PPC, but still went on do successful airline careers, why because at the time they were hired they were the most qualified pilot available.

Dude!!

Are you using voice recognition software? Because, if you are actually typing this incoherent drivel, then you have no business in a cockpit or sim.

English is a language.

Learn it.

 

[pilotyip]

oh my gaad, not hte speeling plocie?

Dude!!

Are you using voice recognition software? Because, if you are actually typing this incoherent drivel, then you have no business in a cockpit or sim.

English is a language.

Learn it.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! If you can raed tihs forwrad it. If you can read this you should have had no problem with the above post, I did not know I was sunmitting a paper for freshamn english, but I am flattered by your concern. In fact if you really want to help why don't you re write it in the way you believe ti should be written. That sounds like a reasonalbe request. BTW College has nothing to do with flying an airplane.

 

[CX880]

I wouldn't be against some sort of minimum education requirement to qualify for a "professional pilot" position. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with a pilot who chooses to forego university in favor of a flying career. Let's be honest here. How much "smarts" does one really need to follow directions or read checklists? I have seen some great pilots who just barely finished HS.
.

I don't agree with that. The purpose of the college thing is to differentiate between an educated person and just another bus driver. That's why a college degree is required at any place worth going to.