Are Low time new hires at regionals safe?

[ALIMBO]

Sad thing is working at Best Buy probably would pay more than the regional your at now lol. There wont be any failures I kno what I did wrong the last time around.

 

[172driver]

I think the issue boils down to the individual more than it does experience.

I have flown with guys with 200 hrs that would be professional, competent and safe FO's after a 121 training course. Maybe 10-20% of pilots fit in this category. They have a natural aptitude for flying, good multi-tasking skills, and a good attitude. Usually very smart folks.

The majority of pilots are ready for a 121 cockpit after 600-1000 hrs, depending on the diversity and quality of their time and training. I would say 60-70% fit here.

10-20% of pilots have no business in a cockpit at all, much less with pax in the back. For some it's attitude, some decision-making, some basic skills, or a combination. We have all flown with them and it's no different at 200 hrs, 2000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs.

 

[five-alive]

All I have to say to that is Captain Veldhuyzen van Zanten....

Most of the accidents are experienced pilots because those are the guys that fly a lot, thus more exposure to threats and opportunities to make mistakes and have accidents.

And yes captains screw up too especially on the ground because they are the ones taxiing, the most treacherous phase of flight IMO. When you move over to the left seat you will be more vulnerable to more mistakes also. So let's not have the attitude of "I'm here to save the world from these hapless captains" because when you upgrade you will have some know-it-all Riddle FO who thinks he is way better than you and I guarantee you won't appreciate it.

 

[spg2bmd]

Just air it out, its ok.

 

[waveflyer]

I think the issue boils down to the individual more than it does experience.

I have flown with guys with 200 hrs that would be professional, competent and safe FO's after a 121 training course. Maybe 10-20% of pilots fit in this category. They have a natural aptitude for flying, good multi-tasking skills, and a good attitude. Usually very smart folks.

The majority of pilots are ready for a 121 cockpit after 600-1000 hrs, depending on the diversity and quality of their time and training. I would say 60-70% fit here.

10-20% of pilots have no business in a cockpit at all, much less with pax in the back. For some it's attitude, some decision-making, some basic skills, or a combination. We have all flown with them and it's no different at 200 hrs, 2000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs.

Well said-

And that being said- there are some things that you just need to experience. Ice- first time the props sling it against the fuselage. Deice. Thunderstorms where the microburst gives- then takes away. Mountains. Shooting an 1800RVR approach where you don't enter the clouds until 300 feet. And just the overall ability to make a decision. That's the biggest problem to me w/ going right into the sheltered 121 environment. Much of my decision making skills were learned on solo cross-country flights and flying 135 single pilot cargo- also flight instructing gives you many tools you use as a captain every day. So while i always say there is no replacing talent and character- I also believe there is no replacing experience. To me, you need BOTH. And if we allow an industry where BOTH are not requirements- expect lower wages and lower safety. Could you imagine Doctors allowing their industry to be dumbed down and made easier?

 

[172driver]

Agreed on the experience being valuable, but I think it's ok for someone talented to learn those things in the 121 environment as long as they have the basics solidly in hand.

Now...as to whether it is important for a pilot to experience a microburst first hand? A valuable experience that will likely never be repeated, but not a good idea. I don't think that belongs in the same category as deicing or approaches to mins.

 

[waveflyer]

ok- well-- if you never flew close to a microburst- you wouldn't fly to DEN every time you were scheduled- How about never flying into a full fledge MB-AGAIN, DECISION MAKING- but still can see a +20/-20 and land knowing what's happening w/ the energy.

 

[Captzaahlie]

I keep flopping back and forth on this issue! 350 hour pilots in RJs, are they adequate FOs? What kind of captains will they make? How long before they are upgraded? Creepers! I put this on the fractional section because we all travel on the regionals so frequently.

VERY DANGEROUS SITUATIONS ARE BEING CREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A VERY LOW TIME NEW HIRE'S BACK PACK ON THE FLIGHT DECK FLOOR ALMOST MADE ME TRIP THE OTHER DAY, AS I GETTING OUT OF MY SEAT!


The FAA seems to think these low time new hires are adequately trained......have they ever made a mistake or not looked out for the general public?


Why worry they (the faa) have everything under control...... right?
:erm:

 

[Captzaahlie]

Agreed on the experience being valuable, but I think it's ok for someone talented to learn those things in the 121 environment as long as they have the basics solidly in hand.

Now...as to whether it is important for a pilot to experience a microburst first hand? A valuable experience that will likely never be repeated, but not a good idea. I don't think that belongs in the same category as deicing or approaches to mins.

Been there done that.....

On a Rosslyn LDA to DCA one day of all places.....
They can pop up anywhere with out warning, sometimes all the experience in the world will not keep you from finding a surprise or two. Luckily we hit it around 2,500 feet much lower and we woulda made the front page of USA today.....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

As fewer and fewer professionals exist at the regional level, what's left is a cadre of sloppy, lazy and under-skilled pilots who pass those attributes on to the next generation of captain. In over 10 years of regional flying I've never witnessed such a low level of knowledge and competence in the cockpit yet the scary thing is no one wants to listen to those concerns much less the pilot himself. The company will put up front any warm body to keep the completion factor nominal.

Answer- wait for the mainline flight even if it costs you more money.

 

[Captzaahlie]

I think the issue boils down to the individual more than it does experience.

I have flown with guys with 200 hrs that would be professional, competent and safe FO's after a 121 training course. Maybe 10-20% of pilots fit in this category. They have a natural aptitude for flying, good multi-tasking skills, and a good attitude. Usually very smart folks.

The majority of pilots are ready for a 121 cockpit after 600-1000 hrs, depending on the diversity and quality of their time and training. I would say 60-70% fit here.

10-20% of pilots have no business in a cockpit at all, much less with pax in the back. For some it's attitude, some decision-making, some basic skills, or a combination. We have all flown with them and it's no different at 200 hrs, 2000 hrs, or 20,000 hrs.

Good post, I completely agree for what my little 14 1/2 years of left seat 121 time is worth....

 

[Captzaahlie]

Answer- wait for the mainline flight even if it costs you more money.

There are plenty of lazy, non checklist using, complacent old timers out there at the mainline level too............ I've been on enough jump seats over the years to see it with my own eyes first hand.

 

[Mazdarx7]

They must be, havent heard of any accidents lately..

 

[ifly4food]

As fewer and fewer professionals exist at the regional level, what's left is a cadre of sloppy, lazy and under-skilled pilots who pass those attributes on to the next generation of captain. In over 10 years of regional flying I've never witnessed such a low level of knowledge and competence in the cockpit yet the scary thing is no one wants to listen to those concerns much less the pilot himself. The company will put up front any warm body to keep the completion factor nominal.

Answer- wait for the mainline flight even if it costs you more money.

Are you in the training department? How do you get to evaluate so many captains?

Your terse generalization makes your post totally non-credible. We all know that not all regional pilots, in fact not even a majority of regional pilots suck. Now if you have PROOF of the contrary (not more opinion), I'm all ears.

 

[waveflyer]

So the solution, then, is for ALPA/APA/IPA etc-to get our hand deep into the training world instead of letting the FAA have complete control. Ensure the professionalism and competency at that level and that will ensure that young pilots know what they are getting into and value what they do. Young pilots are not the problem- the problem is pilots, young and old, who do not value what they do- then act and vote accordingly-- ie:don't study or train well enough, and vote in concessions.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Are you in the training department? How do you get to evaluate so many captains?

Your terse generalization makes your post totally non-credible. We all know that not all regional pilots, in fact not even a majority of regional pilots suck. Now if you have PROOF of the contrary (not more opinion), I'm all ears.

I've flown with many marginal FO's who are by miracle in the left seat now. Couple them with the FO's we hire now and there's your proof. Every day the regionals such as mine are losing their best pilots.

BTW- reading a checklist with your eyes focused strictly on the paper does not constitute professionalism. 9/10 pilots don't seem to even know how to use the damned things.

 

[30West]

From almost a decade worth of training and checking airline pilots, I can say that it is definitely possible to train low time pilots for airline cockpits.
However, what is a fact is that it is exponentially more difficult to do so.
Generally the largest obstacle is inexperience. Most guys I find have good attitudes and hit the books pretty hard.
There are still the usual turds in the bunch that think they are owed something or that "you're short of pilots so you need me". These guys are usually the weakest airmen and can be easily beaten down or washed out in the sim.

I believe Captains should all get overrides for being instructors. That's infortunately one of the new roles as captain. If training departments washed out every new hire that wasn't 100% airlines would quickly go out of business due to crew shortages.

If airlines would wake up and realize all they had to do was throw in a few extra bones and tweak some work rules they'd keep more experienced people and not waste so much money on "revolving door" training events.....

 

[Captzaahlie]

I've flown with many marginal FO's who are by miracle in the left seat now. Couple them with the FO's we hire now and there's your proof. Every day the regionals such as mine are losing their best pilots.

BTW- reading a checklist with your eyes focused strictly on the paper does not constitute professionalism. 9/10 pilots don't seem to even know how to use the damned things.

I know many outstanding career regional pilots that are happy where they are at for several reasons, seniority, pay, schedules or the fact that they have military retirement cash coming in additionally to enhance there pay. You must have seen a whole lot of crap at Mesa huh? Maybe you should have picked a better regional to fly for because your comments are slightly ignorant at best...............
:bomb:

 

[check6]

If that kid is flying a prop, I don't think its a big deal. The Captain has enough time to react and take the controls, but if he's flying a Jet, hum.......I don't know...

How will Mesa advertse pilot jobs around 2015-
" have you solo? if you have, come and join one of the fastest growing airlines in the country."

Prop or Jet... I don't think it makes a difference. An engine failure in a prop will eat your lunch just as much as a jet.

 

[rustypigeon]

I'm not sure which is worse, the low time or the immaturity. When I was down in training a couple months ago I saw some new hires tackling each other in the halls and playing football in the parking lot. Please leave the high school maturity when you leave high school, even if you just graduated last June.