Are Low time new hires at regionals safe?

[BOYCAPTAIN]

It really is amazing we have not seen more accidents based on the experience level at the regionals. .

a credit to the captains!!!!!!! well done!!!!!!!

 

[BOX OFFICE]

So who would be the safer bet as captain of that airliner - you as a street captain with 1700 hrs (how much of that is dual given?) and no time in type, or the guy who was hired at 350 hrs with 1350 hrs in type at the airline?

But the point you're missing is that most of us in this industry longer than 5 years came in with 1500+ hours, then accumulated 2000 more as FOs. And most of us had prior 121 or 135 time, or at least a CFI. Today, they come in with 300-500, never instructed or flew 135, and upgrade as soon as the hit the minimums. They don't have time to learn the skills and judgment needed to be a good captain.

Back in the old days (late 90s for you youngsters) "street captains" had prior 121 or 135 time, most likely in type, and most had several thousand hours.

 

[Cargoav8or]

Just sit in the back of the plane. That way you'll be the last one to the scene of the crash and may survive

 

[luvz2fli]

But the point you're missing is that most of us in this industry longer than 5 years came in with 1500+ hours, then accumulated 2000 more as FOs. And most of us had prior 121 or 135 time, or at least a CFI. Today, they come in with 300-500, never instructed or flew 135, and upgrade as soon as the hit the minimums. They don't have time to learn the skills and judgment needed to be a good captain.

Back in the old days (late 90s for you youngsters) "street captains" had prior 121 or 135 time, most likely in type, and most had several thousand hours.

Agreed. It's ridiculous how few of hours some of these FOs have. This is what drives down salaries as well. Why pay someone experienced a top dollar when you can get the newbie who just wants to fly to work for a lot less and do sorta close to the same job. It's also why 70 seat jets are flown for 50 or less seat salaries.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

B-rad, you still can't fly worth a damn and you know it!




Just kiddin' man...how's life as a waterskier?...you done with training yet?

Dawg you aint neva flown wit me! :beer:

As for the real life...its not too bad, just got all done with training and waiting for IOE. How about you? What are you doing after May?

 

[time builder]

I get the feeling there's a lot of "look out for the other guy" kind of attitudes on this board. Look at your own postition, are you as experienced as you should be?

Personally, I got into the left seat of my type at 2/3 the company mins.

 

[Flybywire44]

They log PIC time, not instructor time!!! That doesn't relinquish the fact that the FO should have a certain amount of capability and experience to assist the CA. Its a 2 person crew, not a single pilot operation.

I always thought as Capts as an instructor... Especially now.

 

[viper548]

I always thought as Capts as an instructor... Especially now.

It's just sad how basic the instruction is sometimes

 

[Freight Dog]

Pre-9/11, you would be lucky to get talked to without 1200TT and at least 200 multi. At that time, most places preferred CFI time and some Part 135 single pilot work for multi time...

My, how times have changed.

 

[OPECJet]

I always thought as Capts as an instructor... Especially now.

I always thought of them as an instructor only in the subjects you don't learn in training. The kind of stuff the training depts may not even know about since they're not in the airplane day in and day out.

I learned the quirks of the operation from the captains I flew with. These guys helped to expand knowledge I already had. Taught me new ways to process information, and give me new insights.

The other pilots in my class probably got the same kind of online training from the captains they flew with.

How are the 300 hour types going to learn those types of things while still hanging on to the airplane for dear life. You're just not going to process information as well when you're sitting in the cockpit of a jet scared of it. You also can't build on your experience when you don't have any.

My prognostication is these guys will be safe in the left seat when that time comes until they see something new. Then it will be relying on procedures and checklists to bail themselves out of trouble rather than task management, situational awareness, airmanship and decision making. We've all got a few holes in our knowledge and none of us have seen it all. What we do have is some experience to keep things at a manageable level.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

From the left seat it sure looks like the flight schools don't teach x-wind landings anymore. And in some cases not at all!

Not a check airman right now, but have been in past, my basic rule is "would I put my wife and kid on a airplane with this guy?" for criteria of passing the ride, ioe whatever.
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My wife and I have decided to forgo any trips that involve RJ's right now.

In the words of a CK airman at his 4th airline (regional) waiting on recall to his airline......"They are scaring the ******************** out of me out there."

 

[Draginass]

Don't the Airforce guys only have 200hrs when they start flying the T-38's? It's not quantity that counts it's quality of training.

Actually, I think it's more like 120 hours when T38 phase is started.

However, green USAF pilots, while low time, have extremely rigorous training, plus are very closely supervised daily by other squadron pilots who know them personally and fly with them regularly. Weaknesses are easily identified and can be remedied.

In an airline environment, the incompetent and weak can float around the system for extended periods of time virtually unsupervised. Few captains will take responsibility to make calls to the chief pilot and identify problem copilots. They just fly the trip, compensate for the inadequacy in the right seat, and pass 'em on to the next captain.

And the chief pilots? Well, they see problem copilots as the captains problem. The chief pilot's problem is to keep the seat filled.

It is management's responsibility to hire and train competent, qualified, and EXPERIENCED pilots. They are failing at this. It should not be the captain's responsibility to compensate for the failures of highly-paid executives to do their job. However, management, as always, will transfer the responsibility of their failures down the line. The failure on our part as pilots is that we allow them to do that.

Until regional captains have the cajones to stand up and just say NO MORE, then you can expect more of the same.

 

[Flyerdan]

They log PIC time, not instructor time!!! That doesn't relinquish the fact that the FO should have a certain amount of capability and experience to assist the CA. Its a 2 person crew, not a single pilot operation.

This "they're logging PIC time, not instructor time" argument doesn't hold much weight for me. How you log your time and what you call it is an FAA thing. What the requirements of your job are is something the airline should step up and define. Given the current state of the industry, I think regional airlines should hold captains' boards, interview upgrade candidates based on their capacity for both PIC & training/mentoring abilities. I see too many captains who feel they are entitled to the left seat simply because their seniority number came up. The regional airlines should really demand more than that.

 

[rumpletumbler]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot I'm going to join in.

I'm a 500 hour wonder. I've never flown a regional jet but I have about 25 hours flying (not just riding) in CE-550's/501's and about 75 hours flying (not just riding) SA-226's. I say this because for my total time I find it weird and unusual that I have time in these aircraft. It kind of blows my mind that folks with my time level are flying RJ's.

That said, for me I can tell you that I don't think for me the flying would be an issue. I believe I could fly an RJ without issue after training.

What would bother me and what 'did' bother me doing the flying that I spoke about above (and I wasn't alone) was my lack of real world experience.

I didn't and don't yet have the real world weather experience that I believe was needed nor did I have the experience that only time can provide that I think one should possess to fly with all those folks in the back.

I may be wrong but it seems the experience you get from entering that job at that level of experience would be perverted to a degree and when you become a Captain then that becomes a problem.

It's like you're skipping the process where you, yourself gain experience in the decision making and learning process by watching a variety of others make decisions.

Where is the confidence and knowledge in that for yourself?

I may be unclear or wrong but I thought I'd throw my opinion out there.

 

[luvz2fli]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot I'm going to join in.

I'm a 500 hour wonder. I've never flown a regional jet but I have about 25 hours flying (not just riding) in CE-550's/501's and about 75 hours flying (not just riding) SA-226's. I say this because for my total time I find it weird and unusual that I have time in these aircraft. It kind of blows my mind that folks with my time level are flying RJ's.

That said, for me I can tell you that I don't think for me the flying would be an issue. I believe I could fly an RJ without issue after training.

What would bother me and what 'did' bother me doing the flying that I spoke about above (and I wasn't alone) was my lack of real world experience.

I didn't and don't yet have the real world weather experience that I believe was needed nor did I have the experience that only time can provide that I think one should possess to fly with all those folks in the back.

I may be wrong but it seems the experience you get from entering that job at that level of experience would be perverted to a degree and when you become a Captain then that becomes a problem.

It's like you're skipping the process where you, yourself gain experience in the decision making and learning process by watching a variety of others make decisions.

Where is the confidence and knowledge in that for yourself?

I may be unclear or wrong but I thought I'd throw my opinion out there.

Well said! That's the problem. Too many of these folks don't have the experience you speak of. They are 300 hour wonder pilots flying in the right seat while their captains a lot of times are brand new just made enough time to make captain types of guys. Nice post though.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot I'm going to join in.

I'm a 500 hour wonder. I've never flown a regional jet but I have about 25 hours flying (not just riding) in CE-550's/501's and about 75 hours flying (not just riding) SA-226's. I say this because for my total time I find it weird and unusual that I have time in these aircraft. It kind of blows my mind that folks with my time level are flying RJ's.

That said, for me I can tell you that I don't think for me the flying would be an issue. I believe I could fly an RJ without issue after training.

What would bother me and what 'did' bother me doing the flying that I spoke about above (and I wasn't alone) was my lack of real world experience.

I didn't and don't yet have the real world weather experience that I believe was needed nor did I have the experience that only time can provide that I think one should possess to fly with all those folks in the back.

I may be wrong but it seems the experience you get from entering that job at that level of experience would be perverted to a degree and when you become a Captain then that becomes a problem.

It's like you're skipping the process where you, yourself gain experience in the decision making and learning process by watching a variety of others make decisions.

Where is the confidence and knowledge in that for yourself?

I may be unclear or wrong but I thought I'd throw my opinion out there.

Keep this humble attitude and you'll do fine no matter what you fly. Nice post.

 

[OPECJet]

Very nice post. You're wise beyond your hours.

 

[waveflyer]

i've heard the argument before: making the leap will always be a leap- what does another several hundred hours of instructing do for me? - As a regional captain you will instruct all the time. The type of flying is so different, i agree- to a point- that the flying experience isn't the valuable thing-- but how to communicate and teach is- not to mention be able to make decisions yourself w/o another to lean on. Go into the right seat right after flight school- having never been the authority once in the flight deck- and then expect everyone to hop into that role as a captain is naive. No judgement on the person- but these are the worst FO's- and the ones who struggle in upgrade if they make it at all. They are too used to deferring in the flight deck. Nothing replaces being the decision maker- Any monkey can handle the controls-- it's judgement that makes a pilot.

 

[waveflyer]

you are wise beyond your hours-
Skimping on your training and development will hound you your whole career-- part of that is making career decisions that will develop your judgement- not just get you in a uniform to play 'airline pilot' as soon as possible.
With that attitude, I predict you'll have a long long time to enjoy the uniform- and much more satisfying experiences when you go through training events the rest of your life. I love seeing pilots thinking long term.

 

[ALIMBO]

As a low time pilot with the regionals about a year away I'm scared to say that I don't feel like I could really do my job competently with the little time I have. But at the same time I don't really want to wait until I have more time and the apply a big issue is I'm afraid that by the time I go to look for a job they will all be gone and then Ill be stuck instructing for awhile. It's real 50 50 to me and I'm kinda stuck. For the safety of myself and others I don't think I'm ready to make such a huge jump but then again people are doing it every day so I guess I should be ok right? I do know that I wont take an upgrade to captain even if I meet the the time requirement I def cant see myself taking that responsibility with just a couple thousand hours. I think personally it take at least double that to be able to safely make decisions on the half of the 50-70 people behind you.

 

[stillflyn]

I keep flopping back and forth on this issue! 350 hour pilots in RJs, are they adequate FOs? What kind of captains will they make? How long before they are upgraded? Creepers! I put this on the fractional section because we all travel on the regionals so frequently.

NO!!!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

This "they're logging PIC time, not instructor time" argument doesn't hold much weight for me. How you log your time and what you call it is an FAA thing. What the requirements of your job are is something the airline should step up and define. Given the current state of the industry, I think regional airlines should hold captains' boards, interview upgrade candidates based on their capacity for both PIC & training/mentoring abilities. I see too many captains who feel they are entitled to the left seat simply because their seniority number came up. The regional airlines should really demand more than that.

Instructors get paid more to instruct......If you want me to instruct.....then pay me to instruct.....

In addition, scheduled 121 flight operations should never be used to teach primary flight skills....If you can't use proper crosswind technique....then you need to go learn in C172.....not an RJ and definately not in an ATR.....

 

[time builder]

This "they're logging PIC time, not instructor time" argument doesn't hold much weight for me. How you log your time and what you call it is an FAA thing. What the requirements of your job are is something the airline should step up and define. Given the current state of the industry, I think regional airlines should hold captains' boards, interview upgrade candidates based on their capacity for both PIC & training/mentoring abilities. I see too many captains who feel they are entitled to the left seat simply because their seniority number came up. The regional airlines should really demand more than that.

I'm with you, what we need is more mentoring. A good attitude goes a long way in this industry.

 

[time builder]

Let me give an example of 2 kinds of captains I flew with as a "500 hour wonder."

Captain #1- Didn't have the same opportunities I had, instructed until well over 1000 hours, flew cargo in piston planes until over 2000 hours, etc. They just couldn't relate to me. This kind of captain didn't let me make decisions on my own, just took over during crunch time if I wasn't doing something "their way." They'd also bad mouth my fellow FO's behind their back for everything they did wrong. These kind of people are also the kind who don't give helpful tips, just tell you to memorize the whole FAR/AIM before you fly with them again.

Captain #2- The mentor, may have had a similar background as Captain #1, but makes an effort to relate to the FO. They see a good attitude in an FO, and work with it. The mentor lets the FO fly as much as possible, and make decisions while staying alert for possibly hazardous conditions. The mentor doesn't necessarily have to "go easy" on the FO, in fact, they hold them to a high standard, and consistently challenge their minds with varying scenarios that they've encountered that the FO may not have.

Which kind of captian would you want to fly with?

I often have guys in the right seat sigh and say that their "brain is full" they're "overloaded." All I can say is "that's a good thing, take a break, study some more be prepared for more tomorrow." They're not my trainees, I'm just mentoring, but there's a certain level of satisfaction in my mind when these guys become captains and still come to me with questions. Not necessarliy for my pride in being a "know it all," just that I'm glad to help, because I've had some really good mentors and I want to be the same.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Are Low time new hires at regionals safe?

No.

 

[Flyerdan]

Let me give an example of 2 kinds of captains I flew with as a "500 hour wonder."

Captain #1- Didn't have the same opportunities I had, instructed until well over 1000 hours, flew cargo in piston planes until over 2000 hours, etc. They just couldn't relate to me. This kind of captain didn't let me make decisions on my own, just took over during crunch time if I wasn't doing something "their way." They'd also bad mouth my fellow FO's behind their back for everything they did wrong. These kind of people are also the kind who don't give helpful tips, just tell you to memorize the whole FAR/AIM before you fly with them again.

Captain #2- The mentor, may have had a similar background as Captain #1, but makes an effort to relate to the FO. They see a good attitude in an FO, and work with it. The mentor lets the FO fly as much as possible, and make decisions while staying alert for possibly hazardous conditions. The mentor doesn't necessarily have to "go easy" on the FO, in fact, they hold them to a high standard, and consistently challenge their minds with varying scenarios that they've encountered that the FO may not have.

Which kind of captian would you want to fly with?

I often have guys in the right seat sigh and say that their "brain is full" they're "overloaded." All I can say is "that's a good thing, take a break, study some more be prepared for more tomorrow." They're not my trainees, I'm just mentoring, but there's a certain level of satisfaction in my mind when these guys become captains and still come to me with questions. Not necessarliy for my pride in being a "know it all," just that I'm glad to help, because I've had some really good mentors and I want to be the same.

Great post! I can tell you really understand the meaning and responsibility of calling yourself a professional pilot. Some of my best experiences as a pilot have been when I was able to reach back and help someone who was struggling with their flying.

 

[701EV]

PA31,

Sweet Avtar!

701EV

 

[waveflyer]

Joe- i'll give you this- you're consistent. a moron, but consistent.
Good post there time builder. You can tell, among other things, that you're secure in your abilities. It's usually the one's that f' up a lot who don't like to mentor-- they never did the requisite work in the first place. How could they mentor? Good thing though Joe- you are teaching, whether you like it or not... Just the FO's aren't telling you they're learning what not to do.

 

[AWACoff]

ALIMBO,

I realize you think you have mastered how to fly an airplane. Just remember this.

You don't know what you don't know.

You are barely safe enough to take your mom around the patch. You will find out once you get some real world experience how little you actually know right now. Be humble when you land your first gig. Don't beat yourself up over the lack of knowledge and percieved skill you thought you had. You come off as some omnipotent jackass when in reality you're just another low time pilot who thinks he knows it all. Close you mouth and open your ears.

I hope that this was you barely flying at all cause i think I mastered x-winds at around 100-120 hrs.

 

[NEDude]

If that kid is flying a prop, I don't think its a big deal.

What are you smoking?!

I have 3000 hours in the Beech 1900, just over 1000 in the CRJ and now close to 1000 in the Airbus. The Beech 1900 in the hands of a low time pilot is scariest of all.