Are Low time new hires at regionals safe?

[say again]

Don't the Airforce guys only have 200hrs when they start flying the T-38's? It's not quantity that counts it's quality of training.

True, but Air Force training is much better and more professional, IMHO. Its tough to get quality training at flight schools with CFI's leaving their students after a couple of months. Now the student has to start fresh with a new, and probably green CFI.

 

[T-prop]

Don't the Airforce guys only have 200hrs when they start flying the T-38's? It's not quantity that counts it's quality of training.

AF: T-37 to T-38 to F-16 in a few hundred hours.

Commission Requires: college degree, aptitude test, physical test, Leadership skills, teamwork skills. Then you start flight training.

Pilot Puppy Farm to Regional: Cessna 172 to Seminole to CRJ900/EMB-170 in a few hundred hours.

Requires: good credit (or mom and dad), i-pod, hair gel, inferiority complex, fuselage envy, and a me me me me me attitude.

Hmmm...

How does military training compare with a civilian pilot factory again?

 

[Flybywire44]

Low time pilots at regionals are safe, Capts are not logging PIC for nothing.

 

[say again]

Low time pilots at regionals are safe, Capts are not logging PIC for nothing.

They log PIC time, not instructor time!!! That doesn't relinquish the fact that the FO should have a certain amount of capability and experience to assist the CA. Its a 2 person crew, not a single pilot operation.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Actually, they do have an option. They can pay respectable wages and maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging experienced pilots. Instead of raising the bar, they lower standards so much that they have to go to pilot factories for fresh starry eyed grads. Also, the flying public doesn't know and probably wouldn't care even if they did know. They just care that their tickets are cheap.

BTW; Not cutting on starry eyed flight school grads. just cutting on the airlines. Hell, I wouldn't have turned down a jet job at 300 hours.

It isn't that simple.

The problem is much the same reason that Delta can't raise fares. All of the regionals would have to raise their pay simultaneously, and demand more income from their airline partners simultaneously. Good luck with that, especially with fuel at record highs.

If a regional pays more, it has to charge more, or it is going out of business. Plain economics guys. The market has forced pay to where it is, despite the union attempting to artificially hold the bar on pay-scales. You good republican capitalists out there should understand market economics.

 

[Baronman]

I'll chime in. One thing I notice about the very low time guys is that they rarely catch my mistakes. Sometimes I'll beat myself up over an error that I commit, but then normally a solid FO would have caught it. These guys don't.

 

[pa31capt]

Wasn't there a time back pre 2001 when 300 - 500 hours was the norm? I hear alot of Captains complaining about low mins when a lot of them where hired 9 or 10 years ago with the same time. I can honestly say that I've flown with low time FO's and they do a great job. I think in comes down to training.

 

[JSky26]

I dont really know about other guys but I know personally that I didnt have the slightest idea what I was doing at 300-350 hours.In fact I didnt learn how to fly, well how to really fly, until I had my CFI and about 100 DG under my belt.

...but who knows...maybe some are better than others...

B-rad, you still can't fly worth a damn and you know it!




Just kiddin' man...how's life as a waterskier?...you done with training yet?

 

[fam62c]

It's not necessarily the low time FO's that I worry about, it's the combination of low time FO's and inexperienced CA's that could result in disaster. Back when I started 1500 hours wouldn't even get you an interview now we have 121 CA's with not much more than that. When things start to go wrong even experienced crews can start to lose situational awareness. Experience teaches you to remain calm, prioritize workload and have the judgement and decision making skills to choose the best course of action. Also, all the technology and automation in the world doesn't help you land with reduced visibility on a slippery runway at night with blowing snow and a stiff crosswind. I learned these skills as an FO with seasoned people in the left seat to show me how it was done. When it was my turn to be a new CA I had the luxury of having experienced FO's that helped catch things that I missed.

I'm hoping that our current crewmember experience levels at certain carriers don't result in a tradgedy.

 

[jdubya]

It really is amazing we have not seen more accidents based on the experience level at the regionals. There have been a couple, but nothing the media has really latched on to, which is what it would take to force a change. Of course, we all know that is how the FAA operates, but that is another thread topic.
That said, ask any FAA inspector, and they will tell you that the incident rate at the regional level is high.
I believe the automation is the main factor in the lack of accidents. If there were some of the old turboprops out there in large numbers, it would not be good. Yeah they were slow, but the workload and sometimes lack of autopilot would be too much for a lot of these guys/gals.
You have to stay humble in this business, you definitely never stop learning-but, there is a certain level of skill that should be accepted at the 121 level. Pilots are shortchanged when they skip flight instructing and then 135 jobs.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

It really is amazing we have not seen more accidents based on the experience level at the regionals. .

a credit to the captains!!!!!!! well done!!!!!!!

 

[BOX OFFICE]

So who would be the safer bet as captain of that airliner - you as a street captain with 1700 hrs (how much of that is dual given?) and no time in type, or the guy who was hired at 350 hrs with 1350 hrs in type at the airline?

But the point you're missing is that most of us in this industry longer than 5 years came in with 1500+ hours, then accumulated 2000 more as FOs. And most of us had prior 121 or 135 time, or at least a CFI. Today, they come in with 300-500, never instructed or flew 135, and upgrade as soon as the hit the minimums. They don't have time to learn the skills and judgment needed to be a good captain.

Back in the old days (late 90s for you youngsters) "street captains" had prior 121 or 135 time, most likely in type, and most had several thousand hours.

 

[Cargoav8or]

Just sit in the back of the plane. That way you'll be the last one to the scene of the crash and may survive

 

[luvz2fli]

But the point you're missing is that most of us in this industry longer than 5 years came in with 1500+ hours, then accumulated 2000 more as FOs. And most of us had prior 121 or 135 time, or at least a CFI. Today, they come in with 300-500, never instructed or flew 135, and upgrade as soon as the hit the minimums. They don't have time to learn the skills and judgment needed to be a good captain.

Back in the old days (late 90s for you youngsters) "street captains" had prior 121 or 135 time, most likely in type, and most had several thousand hours.

Agreed. It's ridiculous how few of hours some of these FOs have. This is what drives down salaries as well. Why pay someone experienced a top dollar when you can get the newbie who just wants to fly to work for a lot less and do sorta close to the same job. It's also why 70 seat jets are flown for 50 or less seat salaries.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

B-rad, you still can't fly worth a damn and you know it!




Just kiddin' man...how's life as a waterskier?...you done with training yet?

Dawg you aint neva flown wit me! :beer:

As for the real life...its not too bad, just got all done with training and waiting for IOE. How about you? What are you doing after May?

 

[time builder]

I get the feeling there's a lot of "look out for the other guy" kind of attitudes on this board. Look at your own postition, are you as experienced as you should be?

Personally, I got into the left seat of my type at 2/3 the company mins.

 

[Flybywire44]

They log PIC time, not instructor time!!! That doesn't relinquish the fact that the FO should have a certain amount of capability and experience to assist the CA. Its a 2 person crew, not a single pilot operation.

I always thought as Capts as an instructor... Especially now.

 

[viper548]

I always thought as Capts as an instructor... Especially now.

It's just sad how basic the instruction is sometimes

 

[Freight Dog]

Pre-9/11, you would be lucky to get talked to without 1200TT and at least 200 multi. At that time, most places preferred CFI time and some Part 135 single pilot work for multi time...

My, how times have changed.

 

[OPECJet]

I always thought as Capts as an instructor... Especially now.

I always thought of them as an instructor only in the subjects you don't learn in training. The kind of stuff the training depts may not even know about since they're not in the airplane day in and day out.

I learned the quirks of the operation from the captains I flew with. These guys helped to expand knowledge I already had. Taught me new ways to process information, and give me new insights.

The other pilots in my class probably got the same kind of online training from the captains they flew with.

How are the 300 hour types going to learn those types of things while still hanging on to the airplane for dear life. You're just not going to process information as well when you're sitting in the cockpit of a jet scared of it. You also can't build on your experience when you don't have any.

My prognostication is these guys will be safe in the left seat when that time comes until they see something new. Then it will be relying on procedures and checklists to bail themselves out of trouble rather than task management, situational awareness, airmanship and decision making. We've all got a few holes in our knowledge and none of us have seen it all. What we do have is some experience to keep things at a manageable level.