Are Low time new hires at regionals safe?

[G4dude]

I keep flopping back and forth on this issue! 350 hour pilots in RJs, are they adequate FOs? What kind of captains will they make? How long before they are upgraded? Creepers! I put this on the fractional section because we all travel on the regionals so frequently.

 

[fly4funcrj]

I think they are good pilots. They are just lacking experience. As a captain at a regional, I flew with some of these guys/gals. The problem will surface when a weak captain and a new f/o are paired. The lack of experience of both pilots will make for a dangerous situation. Of course I was at a regional a few years ago. Don't know about the current quality.

 

[CALRepublic]

We all hate that, the regionals, the flying public, you and me. But its not like the regionals have an option, do they? they gotta keep those airplanes manned.

My friend is a captain at a regional, he says "always be ready to say MY AIRPLANE". He did just that last month, his F/O was taking off, the kid wanted to make a smooth rotation, and almost ran off the runway. I think he gave him back the controls during the climb, but the winds were gusting up to 25 at the destination airport, so he took the controls right back.

Let's not forget that was us, 5, 10, 15 years ago....

 

[amaineiac]

Let's not forget that was us, 5, 10, 15 years ago....

10 years ago I was low time with 1700/700 when I got hired into the Saab. There are guys getting hired now with commercial certificates that still have wet ink.

 

[Photoflight]

I've been told the record at IOE for mesa is in the 150 hour range to get someone passed.

How much yah wanna bet somebody just said screw it and signed the kiddo off.

 

[CALRepublic]

I've been told the record at IOE for mesa is in the 150 hour range to get someone passed.

How much yah wanna bet somebody just said screw it and signed the kiddo off.

If that kid is flying a prop, I don't think its a big deal. The Captain has enough time to react and take the controls, but if he's flying a Jet, hum.......I don't know...

How will Mesa advertse pilot jobs around 2015-
" have you solo? if you have, come and join one of the fastest growing airlines in the country."

 

[j41driver]

If that kid is flying a prop, I don't think its a big deal.

150 hours to get through IOE and you don't think that's a big deal? Wow...

 

[On Your Six]

You can thank automation for making things a bit safer despite lower-time pilots. Sure, you need the experienced PIC, but most glass cockpits make things a lot easier for the newbies... Plus, they're used to it after years of Nintendo and X-Box.

 

[Eot Sugnuf]

I once had a RJ crew make a PA announcement that there was weather ahead and since they were running late they weren't going to deviate so tighten up your seatbelt.

 

[WabiSabi]

We all hate that, the regionals, the flying public, you and me. But its not like the regionals have an option, do they? they gotta keep those airplanes manned.

Actually, they do have an option. They can pay respectable wages and maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging experienced pilots. Instead of raising the bar, they lower standards so much that they have to go to pilot factories for fresh starry eyed grads. Also, the flying public doesn't know and probably wouldn't care even if they did know. They just care that their tickets are cheap.

BTW; Not cutting on starry eyed flight school grads. just cutting on the airlines. Hell, I wouldn't have turned down a jet job at 300 hours.

 

[Ultra Grump]

10 years ago I was low time with 1700/700 when I got hired into the Saab. There are guys getting hired now with commercial certificates that still have wet ink.

So who would be the safer bet as captain of that airliner - you as a street captain with 1700 hrs (how much of that is dual given?) and no time in type, or the guy who was hired at 350 hrs with 1350 hrs in type at the airline?

 

[say again]

So who would be the safer bet as captain of that airliner - you as a street captain with 1700 hrs (how much of that is dual given?) and no time in type, or the guy who was hired at 350 hrs with 1350 hrs in type at the airline?

They wouldn't hire you as a street CA with 1700. Bad comparison. But a 1700/700 would make a better FO then the 350 hr wonder pilot.

 

[FLYLOW22]

We all hate that, the regionals, the flying public, you and me. But its not like the regionals have an option, do they? they gotta keep those airplanes manned.

My friend is a captain at a regional, he says "always be ready to say MY AIRPLANE". He did just that last month, his F/O was taking off, the kid wanted to make a smooth rotation, and almost ran off the runway. I think he gave him back the controls during the climb, but the winds were gusting up to 25 at the destination airport, so he took the controls right back.

Let's not forget that was us, 5, 10, 15 years ago....

All of us had 350 hours at some point. We did NOT have a chance at an airline job at that point, however.

Maybe with 800-1000 with some decent ME time.

No way at 350TT. It's not enough experience I think. Too much, too soon for abnormal ops on bad days.

More time in the oven is needed.

 

[Bruce Dickenson]

I remember the day where I truly realized how to land with a crosswind. Prior to this day a strong crosswind landing was very difficult for me and I just hoped to get it down safe without bending anything. I was flying a 172 and had about 430 hours.

 

[say again]

I remember the day where I truly realized how to land with a crosswind. Prior to this day a strong crosswind landing was very difficult for me and I just hoped to get it down safe without bending anything. I was flying a 172 and had about 430 hours.

Which is a perfect time to learn, and not flying around 50+ people.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

I dont really know about other guys but I know personally that I didnt have the slightest idea what I was doing at 300-350 hours.In fact I didnt learn how to fly, well how to really fly, until I had my CFI and about 100 DG under my belt.

...but who knows...maybe some are better than others...

 

[ALIMBO]

What!

I remember the day where I truly realized how to land with a crosswind. Prior to this day a strong crosswind landing was very difficult for me and I just hoped to get it down safe without bending anything. I was flying a 172 and had about 430 hours.

I hope that this was you barely flying at all cause i think I mastered x-winds at around 100-120 hrs.

 

[airplane wizard]

Don't the Airforce guys only have 200hrs when they start flying the T-38's? It's not quantity that counts it's quality of training.

 

[ALIMBO]

Its more than that they start in the newer T-6 then graduate on to the plane that will fit the one their assigned to. Like the beech400 is for guys going into tankers and cargo. T-38 fighters you get the picture

 

[G2T]

Actually, they do have an option. They can pay respectable wages and maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging experienced pilots.

I will probably get hammered for this, but I don't think it is a pay issue. Raising the pay does not reduce the number of seats to fill. It will not increase the number of pilots to fill those seats either. Previous pilots had to wait their turn and find other flying. I think part of the issue is the rapid expansion of regional slots available. You can't compete for jobs if there is nobody to compete with. Almost Every airline is hiring, including majors, creating even more seats. I believe it is more a supply issue than a pay issue.

 

[say again]

Don't the Airforce guys only have 200hrs when they start flying the T-38's? It's not quantity that counts it's quality of training.

True, but Air Force training is much better and more professional, IMHO. Its tough to get quality training at flight schools with CFI's leaving their students after a couple of months. Now the student has to start fresh with a new, and probably green CFI.

 

[T-prop]

Don't the Airforce guys only have 200hrs when they start flying the T-38's? It's not quantity that counts it's quality of training.

AF: T-37 to T-38 to F-16 in a few hundred hours.

Commission Requires: college degree, aptitude test, physical test, Leadership skills, teamwork skills. Then you start flight training.

Pilot Puppy Farm to Regional: Cessna 172 to Seminole to CRJ900/EMB-170 in a few hundred hours.

Requires: good credit (or mom and dad), i-pod, hair gel, inferiority complex, fuselage envy, and a me me me me me attitude.

Hmmm...

How does military training compare with a civilian pilot factory again?

 

[Flybywire44]

Low time pilots at regionals are safe, Capts are not logging PIC for nothing.

 

[say again]

Low time pilots at regionals are safe, Capts are not logging PIC for nothing.

They log PIC time, not instructor time!!! That doesn't relinquish the fact that the FO should have a certain amount of capability and experience to assist the CA. Its a 2 person crew, not a single pilot operation.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Actually, they do have an option. They can pay respectable wages and maybe they wouldn't be hemorrhaging experienced pilots. Instead of raising the bar, they lower standards so much that they have to go to pilot factories for fresh starry eyed grads. Also, the flying public doesn't know and probably wouldn't care even if they did know. They just care that their tickets are cheap.

BTW; Not cutting on starry eyed flight school grads. just cutting on the airlines. Hell, I wouldn't have turned down a jet job at 300 hours.

It isn't that simple.

The problem is much the same reason that Delta can't raise fares. All of the regionals would have to raise their pay simultaneously, and demand more income from their airline partners simultaneously. Good luck with that, especially with fuel at record highs.

If a regional pays more, it has to charge more, or it is going out of business. Plain economics guys. The market has forced pay to where it is, despite the union attempting to artificially hold the bar on pay-scales. You good republican capitalists out there should understand market economics.

 

[Baronman]

I'll chime in. One thing I notice about the very low time guys is that they rarely catch my mistakes. Sometimes I'll beat myself up over an error that I commit, but then normally a solid FO would have caught it. These guys don't.

 

[pa31capt]

Wasn't there a time back pre 2001 when 300 - 500 hours was the norm? I hear alot of Captains complaining about low mins when a lot of them where hired 9 or 10 years ago with the same time. I can honestly say that I've flown with low time FO's and they do a great job. I think in comes down to training.

 

[JSky26]

I dont really know about other guys but I know personally that I didnt have the slightest idea what I was doing at 300-350 hours.In fact I didnt learn how to fly, well how to really fly, until I had my CFI and about 100 DG under my belt.

...but who knows...maybe some are better than others...

B-rad, you still can't fly worth a damn and you know it!




Just kiddin' man...how's life as a waterskier?...you done with training yet?

 

[fam62c]

It's not necessarily the low time FO's that I worry about, it's the combination of low time FO's and inexperienced CA's that could result in disaster. Back when I started 1500 hours wouldn't even get you an interview now we have 121 CA's with not much more than that. When things start to go wrong even experienced crews can start to lose situational awareness. Experience teaches you to remain calm, prioritize workload and have the judgement and decision making skills to choose the best course of action. Also, all the technology and automation in the world doesn't help you land with reduced visibility on a slippery runway at night with blowing snow and a stiff crosswind. I learned these skills as an FO with seasoned people in the left seat to show me how it was done. When it was my turn to be a new CA I had the luxury of having experienced FO's that helped catch things that I missed.

I'm hoping that our current crewmember experience levels at certain carriers don't result in a tradgedy.

 

[jdubya]

It really is amazing we have not seen more accidents based on the experience level at the regionals. There have been a couple, but nothing the media has really latched on to, which is what it would take to force a change. Of course, we all know that is how the FAA operates, but that is another thread topic.
That said, ask any FAA inspector, and they will tell you that the incident rate at the regional level is high.
I believe the automation is the main factor in the lack of accidents. If there were some of the old turboprops out there in large numbers, it would not be good. Yeah they were slow, but the workload and sometimes lack of autopilot would be too much for a lot of these guys/gals.
You have to stay humble in this business, you definitely never stop learning-but, there is a certain level of skill that should be accepted at the 121 level. Pilots are shortchanged when they skip flight instructing and then 135 jobs.