Are Low time new hires at regionals safe?

[bizjet800]

We are our own worst enemy! Our pastor used to say, when you point your finger at someone else, there will be three fingers pointing back at you.

The real issue is economics, and since they don't teach economics in our schools anymore, here is my two cents: Our economy has moved from a quality standard to a price standard. Anyone remember in the late 90s when United was handing out all those large raises? They were proud to have the highest paid pilots in the world. It was a quality issue. Ask yourself, when you log on to Orbitz, do you shop for the cheapest price? I'll bet that you (myself included) demand the cheapest seat. What about when you go to Walmart, do you care how much cheap labor went into that TV you bought? Well, this is what business model the airlines have to work with. As long as the public demands the lowest price, the airline model must oblige. Well, we as pilots are seeing the other side of the equation. We are the ones that are seeing what lowering the standards does. Where's the bottom? When there aren't enough pilots to fill the seats, the airlines either have to raise the pilot pay, OR lower the standards. They have universally chosen to lower the bar to hiring pilots with minimal experience. This has caused pilot salaries to dip well below the poverty level. Why? because we have all demanded the cheapest seat. (myself included) Like I said, we are our own worst enemy. This is a multi-faceted issue that can't be explained in a few words, but at least I tried to shed light on the real issue.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Millions of americans do stuff that's way more dangerous than flying with a low time pilot. Historically speaking some of the worst accidents envolved the most experienced pilots in the world.

 

[great cornholio]

ALIMBO,

I realize you think you have mastered how to fly an airplane. Just remember this.

You don't know what you don't know.

I took your mom around the patch a few times and shes been fine each time don't hate cause you couldn't do a x-wind when you first learned how to fly.

I really really hope that was a joke... but by going by the posts that I've seen from you I don't think it is. With that being said I hope you are never my FO. You have the exact attitude that we as capts hate. You think you already know everything when in fact you know almost nothing. Actually the more I think about it the more I doubt I will see you sitting to my right because with an attitude like that you will probably be a smoking hole before you even get the hours to meet the ridiculously low hiring mins these days.

 

[great cornholio]

Ok now back to the topic. Are low time FOs safe.... yes and no.

I have flown with pleanty of guys that were hired with 250 total and 15 multi. We even had a few hired with just 220ish total. Some of these FOs are great to fly with. These are the ones that will take the time to listen to the capt and they fly as well as most high time FOs when things are going good.

The other kind of FO is has the same flight time, but think they know everything and are cocky and will not listen. They seem to try to kill you more often than the other guys. These guys are sketchy at best on good days and a nightmare to fly with when anything doesn't go as planed.

Both types of low time FOs seem to all have the same basic problems. First they can't land. I don't mean they slam it on every time I mean they can't hit the centerline or the touchdown zone or they can't correct for a cross wind..etc.

Second they are weak on basic IFR procedures...

Third which is the most scary is that most will break down if something simple throws the plan off from normal SOP. IE Bird strike, CB popping, or even if I have to go talk to dispatch for something. Even these simple non everyday things are too much for most of these guys to handle and its single pilot sunday up there.

Now for things that have been told to me by these low time FOs I'll just tell the 2 worst. The first one could never ever hit the centerline on landing. I tried to teach them what being on the centerline looked like to no avail. Finally some time later we were at the bar and they admitted that they "are scared to use the rudder during landing because the nose wheel might turn and run them off the side of the runway" And last, but not least I had a FO tell me that he didn't know how to read all of the airport taxiway signs. Things like that should not have to be taught in a 121 flight deck they should be taught at the FBO in a 152.

I too think that a new capt paired up with a new FO will one day kill a plane load of people. I don't think anything will change though because I'm not sure 50-70 bodies is enough for the FAA to change its mind.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Ok now back to the topic. Are low time FOs safe.... yes and no.

I have flown with pleanty of guys that were hired with 250 total and 15 multi. We even had a few hired with just 220ish total. Some of these FOs are great to fly with. These are the ones that will take the time to listen to the capt and they fly as well as most high time FOs when things are going good.

The other kind of FO is has the same flight time, but think they know everything and are cocky and will not listen. They seem to try to kill you more often than the other guys. These guys are sketchy at best on good days and a nightmare to fly with when anything doesn't go as planed.

I persoally never understood this type. I mean you dont have anything for time and you're cocky...blows my mind! I only have about 700tt and right now I'm terrified of IOE. I dont want to mess up even though the sim went very well and my check airman didnt have much to say. I guess I'm just really humble.

Both types of low time FOs seem to all have the same basic problems. First they can't land. I don't mean they slam it on every time I mean they can't hit the centerline or the touchdown zone or they can't correct for a cross wind..etc.

Yeah, I feel you there. I dont know what it is about landing the 145 that was difficult in the sim. Its not a hard concept at all to land and keep on the centerline. I think, for me, it was mainly a mental thing. Currently I dont feel too confortable with it but I DO feel that I can hold my own in low x-winds.

Second they are weak on basic IFR procedures...

Yeah, I can definately see where you're coming from here. For me I hadnt flown anything other than an ILS in over two years when I came here in Jan. Now that we have done around 50 or so approaches in the sim and holds I feel much better. The training department here does a good job getting you ready IFR wise but that kinda depends on who you get as your SIM guy. Overall I was pretty impressed with TSA's training...well more like FSI's instructors.

Third which is the most scary is that most will break down if something simple throws the plan off from normal SOP. IE Bird strike, CB popping, or even if I have to go talk to dispatch for something. Even these simple non everyday things are too much for most of these guys to handle and its single pilot sunday up there.

I agree, not enough time getting real world, non 121, experience.

Now for things that have been told to me by these low time FOs I'll just tell the 2 worst. The first one could never ever hit the centerline on landing. I tried to teach them what being on the centerline looked like to no avail. Finally some time later we were at the bar and they admitted that they "are scared to use the rudder during landing because the nose wheel might turn and run them off the side of the runway" And last, but not least I had a FO tell me that he didn't know how to read all of the airport taxiway signs. Things like that should not have to be taught in a 121 flight deck they should be taught at the FBO in a 152.

I too think that a new capt paired up with a new FO will one day kill a plane load of people. I don't think anything will change though because I'm not sure 50-70 bodies is enough for the FAA to change its mind.

Yeah, I know where youre coming from with that but don't most companies have a green-on-green rule or something. I know here its not possible to have two people in the airplane with less than 100 hrs per side in type. I mean thats not going to happen now but it could have when we had different types of A/C.

Look Above!

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Millions of americans do stuff that's way more dangerous than flying with a low time pilot. Historically speaking some of the worst accidents envolved the most experienced pilots in the world.

All I have to say to that is Captain Veldhuyzen van Zanten....

 

[chqflyer]

Tenerife?

 

[Salukipilot4590]

Tenerife?

Yuppers!!

 

[ALIMBO]

Alimbo,

Wow...you really can't take advice from anyone. Pure immaturity. Tough words from someone who FAILED out of an instrument course. But that's ok, you've got PC-12 and C-414 experience....

Get a clue...

Dude Im ********************ing around I am in no way being serious take a joke man. Im the least bit cocky ask Brandon dude he was my instructor. You wanna see my logbook Ill show you the PC-12 and C-414 time dont be upset cause you dont have any turbine time yet you have more ratings than me.

 

[AWACoff]

ALIMBO, when you fail yet another training event, remember to blame everyone but yourself. It was the sim/instructor/dog ate my homework/etc. I've got a few hours of turbine time and it doesn't mean squat. Attitude and aptitude are what is required in aviation and you have neither. Good luck working at Best Buy in a few years. I hear the discounts are great