ALPA MEC tells Gary Kelly no thanks..again

[dicko]

Dan Katz represented the Morris pilots.

With out going into all that ancient history, the Morris pilots were none too happy with his results.

Here is one of the differences in the current 'situation':

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

United States Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit.

 

[Schwanker]

When it doesn't make your case it's "water under the bridge"
When it makes your case it's "legal precedent"

Typical ALPA.

You dismiss your "fair arbitration" result as just "an issue of some newer jets"
Not a big deal except they were all much higher paying wide bodies.

The fact that you won't honestly address where you personally fit into this "fair and equitable" arbitration tells me all I need to know. You list the DC 10 on your avatar along with a picture. You most likely benefitted greatly at the expense of the Republic pilots and then you have the balz to come on here and lecture SWA pilots about fairness? Hypocrite.

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

 

[Dash Power]

Here is one of the differences in the current 'situation':

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

United States Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit.

Amongst many other differences for sure.

My point is mainly that he led the Morris pilots to believe that there would be a completely different result. An adequate representation of 95 pilots 24 years ago is hardly the resume I would put on the top of the stack.

That would not be the attorney I would want arguing for my future. And fortunately is not.

 

[ASADFW7]

Without AAI and the 8000 plus employees the 37000 plus employees at SWA would never survive? The whole fricken airline industry knows who SWA is and their business model, even AAI is using many plays out of the SWA model. What does AAI do that the world is modeling? Xm radio? I do not know please tell us.

Seriously, SWA is bigger than the current pilots on property, though many have years adding to the successful product that SWA has grown into and continued to provide. SWA created the business model before I became a pilot and will continue after I retire. The AAI purchase is a small part of the SWA growth and evolution of their product. But, they are a fraction of the overall product. 1740 AAI pilots are not going to stop SWA from doing what they are going to do within their business model. What AAI has as a company to offer in the SWA business model has very little to do with the AAI pilots.

The AAI pilot group owns nothing to offer. As for the industry, each job has a value to the career of the employee. Right now SWA pilots are employees at a better company and have a better value of a career at their employer. This hasn't always been the case, but even when it wasn't the case by per hour compensation thousands of SWA employees became millionaires through stock and profit sharing. How many millionaires has AAI made of their employees? A handful of management?

If you take the pilot ego out of it, and just place a value on a career at AAI versus SWA and came up with a ratio, the AAI group would be disappointed where they placed. But being a big fish in a small pond doesn't last forever, and the bigger pond is making small fish out of a lot of employees including the pilots from AAI.

As for the financial health of AAI, they didn't need to file for bankruptcy to prove their financial struggles, SWA management knows their health. You know you do not have to throw someone in the pool to know that they are not a good swimmer to prove a point. If the point needs to be made, perhaps SWA management can make it to the AAI employee group.

 

[Bill Nelson]

That would not be the attorney I would want arguing for my future. And fortunately is not.

Katz isn't who ALPA wanted either but they were unprepared and he was all that was left.

 

[Sacha]

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

Hit a sore spot didn't I?

Your airline rolled over the Republic pilots in arbitration. Fact.
It resulted in Red book Green book. Fact
You want to pretend it didn't happen or doesn't matter anymore. Fact.
When questioned, you divert. Fact.

That makes you a hypocrite in any book. FACT

The FACT that you come on this forum and accuse the SWA pilots of not playing fair given your airlines history makes you a true mental idiot.

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

 

[Schwanker]

Hit a sore spot didn't I?

Your airline rolled over the Republic pilots in arbitration. Fact.
It resulted in Red book Green book. Fact
You want to pretend it didn't happen or doesn't matter anymore. Fact.
When questioned, you divert. Fact.

That makes you a hypocrite in any book. FACT

The FACT that you come on this forum and accuse the SWA pilots of not playing fair given your airlines history makes you a true mental idiot.

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

Not lecturing big fella--just asking a question. Guess you're not capable of answering. So be it. Enjoy arbritration.

 

[tzskipper]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

 

[shootr]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

That is a completely valid statement and I agree with it 100%. Thank you! But it has nothing to do with the Southwest/Airtran acquisition and merger of seniority lists.

shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Schwanker, the reason why I asked for a copy of the 4 party process agreement is to see if both sides are following the agreement. You're assuming that the process is being followed by AT. I'm not as confident with that assessment.
There has already been one AirTran pilot who posted that they were insulted by some of the wording in the process agreement. That was a red flag to me.

Those of us on the outside have no idea what's in the language of the document so let's not jump to the conclusion that the agreement is currently being followed by either side. On the same note, don't assume that there's no escape door in the agreement. There's almost always an escape door.

As for fear of arbitration, this is one that could produce a strange result. I'm willing to stick my neck out and predict that it'll be somewhere between a stapling of SWA pilots below all Airtran pilots and a stapling of Airtran pilots
below all SWA pilots. How's that for a prediction?

I have a feeling Andy plenty of high cost lawyers are looking over that agreement and getting ready for possible arbitration. Looking at recent awards, with two airlines with similar aircraft types and business plans (domestic LCCs with limited International flying), I would guess the award will be A HECK OF A LOT BETTER than the first offer. JMO. And the pay will eventually follow, no chance of a permanent B-scale. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Sacha]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

I walked at Eastern. We went down, but so eventually did Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp. That had nothing to do with "raising the bar". It was an effort to keep the bar from completely disappearing.

Northwest pilots and other employee groups were constantly going on strike because of their CEO Nyrop. For decades, NWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry. Employee relations were a joke. Did Northwest raise the bar for SWA? That's ridiculous.

What Nyrop and Lorenzo did prove and perhaps Herb Kelleher learned was in a heavily unionized,labor intensive industry like the airlines, if you are confrontational and unfair to your employees, long term you will lose. If on the other hand you treat your employees like they are the solution,not the enemy. That they and unions are not necessary evils. Herb never told us we were going to be the highest paid, just fairly paid. 40 years of profitability and only one several day strike over 30 years ago by our Mechanics was no accident.

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long. But as far as I am concerned, Herb and Gary have shown other airlines that beating up your employees year after year doesn't accomplish anything. The employees of SWA have shown that career longevity and stability is not accomplished by constantly giving you bosses the middle finger and striving for the "highest pay until the last day". That isn't so smart after all either.

That's how I look at raising the bar.

The original post was to a NWA pilot who lectured the SWA pilots to go arbitration and do the fair thing. I called him out on the Arbitrated Red book Green book result that was at the time the biggest screw jobs in airline history. Don't believe me? Ask a Republic guy. That's how this applys to our situation. ALPA history can be inconvienant for many, but I submit if it were so fair and inclusive, you wouldn't have the majority of the pilots in ALPA now flying for regionals with a move at Delta and Usair to eliminate them completely.

 

[tzskipper]

That is a completely valid statement and I agree with it 100%. Thank you! But it has nothing to do with the Southwest/Airtran acquisition and merger of seniority lists.

shootr

Agreed. It was a question regarding a statement made by Sasha:

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

S

 

[ASADFW7]

On your six how does it feel to working at B scale wages?

 

[Sacha]

Agreed. It was a question regarding a statement made by Sasha:



S

And you left off the majority of my post and cherry picked what you wanted.

 

[On Your Six]

On your six how does it feel to working at B scale wages?

You mean 1st year wages? Not bad, because even though I am on reserve, it's not as bad as my corporate gig that was 24/7 on a beeper. My 2nd year pay starts in the next couple months, and it is a pretty good jump, about $24 bucks more per hour. Luckily I have family nearby so I can stay there during short call reserve, which saves even more money. At my airline, pay moves up pretty quick in the first 3-4 years, and hopefully we will get a good contract in the next year or two, which will help even more. With retirements coming, I feel like I might be doing International widebody flying within the next few years, which is what I personally want to do. Do you need help getting a rec? We may start hiring early next year. PM me if you do.


OYS

 

[ASADFW7]

No oys six year first officer pay at SWA pays a little better.

 

[On Your Six]

No oys six year first officer pay at SWA pays a little better.

After your SLI is over, you may want that rec. Be nice, and it's yours! Godspeed!


OYS

 

[tzskipper]

I walked at Eastern. We went down, but so eventually did Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp. That had nothing to do with "raising the bar". It was an effort to keep the bar from completely disappearing.

Northwest pilots and other employee groups were constantly going on strike because of their CEO Nyrop. For decades, NWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry. Employee relations were a joke. Did Northwest raise the bar for SWA? That's ridiculous.

What Nyrop and Lorenzo did prove and perhaps Herb Kelleher learned was in a heavily unionized,labor intensive industry like the airlines, if you are confrontational and unfair to your employees, long term you will lose. If on the other hand you treat your employees like they are the solution,not the enemy. That they and unions are not necessary evils. Herb never told us we were going to be the highest paid, just fairly paid. 40 years of profitability and only one several day strike over 30 years ago by our Mechanics was no accident.

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long. But as far as I am concerned, Herb and Gary have shown other airlines that beating up your employees year after year doesn't accomplish anything. The employees of SWA have shown that career longevity and stability is not accomplished by constantly giving you bosses the middle finger and striving for the "highest pay until the last day". That isn't so smart after all either.

That's how I look at raising the bar.

Are you serious? The "middle finger" was raised because of management and their negotiating style. To imply that any pilot group should just roll over and take it, is about as ignorant a statement I think could be made. Again, it begs the next question; What data do you think Herb used to determine what "fairly paid" was? To ignore what those groups that created the payscales and workrules that you benefit from went through, and then turn and blame them for their management induced relationships is unbelievable.

S

 

[tzskipper]

And you left off the majority of my post and cherry picked what you wanted.

It was cherry picked, because it deserved to be addressed. If you misspoke what you intended, I will apologize right now. If not, take responsibility for what was written.

S

 

[tzskipper]

I walked at Eastern. We went down, but so eventually did Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp. That had nothing to do with "raising the bar". It was an effort to keep the bar from completely disappearing.

Northwest pilots and other employee groups were constantly going on strike because of their CEO Nyrop. For decades, NWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry. Employee relations were a joke. Did Northwest raise the bar for SWA? That's ridiculous.

What Nyrop and Lorenzo did prove and perhaps Herb Kelleher learned was in a heavily unionized,labor intensive industry like the airlines, if you are confrontational and unfair to your employees, long term you will lose. If on the other hand you treat your employees like they are the solution,not the enemy. That they and unions are not necessary evils. Herb never told us we were going to be the highest paid, just fairly paid. 40 years of profitability and only one several day strike over 30 years ago by our Mechanics was no accident.

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long. But as far as I am concerned, Herb and Gary have shown other airlines that beating up your employees year after year doesn't accomplish anything. The employees of SWA have shown that career longevity and stability is not accomplished by constantly giving you bosses the middle finger and striving for the "highest pay until the last day". That isn't so smart after all either.

That's how I look at raising the bar.

The original post was to a NWA pilot who lectured the SWA pilots to go arbitration and do the fair thing. I called him out on the Arbitrated Red book Green book result that was at the time the biggest screw jobs in airline history. Don't believe me? Ask a Republic guy. That's how this applys to our situation. ALPA history can be inconvienant for many, but I submit if it were so fair and inclusive, you wouldn't have the majority of the pilots in ALPA now flying for regionals with a move at Delta and Usair to eliminate them completely.

Understand the change. I was addressing the implication that what you now enjoy, is not (at least in part) a result of what others fought for.

I am done.

S