ALPA MEC tells Gary Kelly no thanks..again

[jball2]

Jeff Freund!

 

[Schwanker]

An agreement to an arbritrated SL was made if negotiations would not work (which rarely if ever work). Why is SWAPA backtracking on the agreement?

It seems to me SWAPA is trying to bully AT pilots to force them into an unfair list. Why the fear mongering? Why is SWAPA afraid of arbitration? Don't understand.

An agreement was reached with SWA, SWAPA and AT ALPA. Why not follow it? Arbritation time should be coming soon--just get it done! ALPA is following the process and timeline. Again, why does SWAPA fear a fair integration?

 

[Sacha]

An agreement to an arbritrated SL was made if negotiations would not work (which rarely if ever work). Why is SWAPA backtracking on the agreement?

It seems to me SWAPA is trying to bully AT pilots to force them into an unfair list. Why the fear mongering? Why is SWAPA afraid of arbitration? Don't understand.

An agreement was reached with SWA, SWAPA and AT ALPA. Why not follow it? Arbritation time should be coming soon--just get it done! ALPA is following the process and timeline. Again, why does SWAPA fear a fair integration?

Was the red book,green book an arbitrated settlement? (northwest/republic)
Was that fair? Were the Republic pilots happy with that? Those were two ALPA carriers,right? I mean it doesn't go any smoother and fairer when two ALPA carriers merge. Please fill in those of us with fuzzy memories as to the Republic/Northwest merger.

 

[Schwanker]

Was the red book,green book an arbitrated settlement? (northwest/republic)
Was that fair? Were the Republic pilots happy with that? Those were two ALPA carriers,right? I mean it doesn't go any smoother and fairer when two ALPA carriers merge. Please fill in those of us with fuzzy memories as to the Republic/Northwest merger.

It was fair per the arbritrator--probably fairer than could be agreed upon by either side.

One side had wide bodies, the other didn't. This led to fences off of the widebody equipment. Other than that, it was a DOH merger.

Sure there was animosity on both sides, which is probably a good indication it was somewhere in the middle.

Does this answer your questions?

ADDED: Most of the issues which came from this merger was new wide bodies addded to the fleet. Were these replacement aircraft (fenced) or new aircraft open to both sides. Being AT and SWA have similar fleets, this won't be an issue. I don't believe AT is trying to fence SWA guys off of their international routes.

 

[Dash Power]

Originally Posted by UALX727
From the AT merger update today:

In addition, Dan Katz, SWAPA counsel Jeff Freund, mediator Dana Eischen, and Southwest Airlines Senior Labor Counsel Joe Harris conferred multiple times via teleconference during the week to discuss various mediation and arbitration schedules. During the exchanges, SWAPA pushed for a delay in the arbitration proceedings, which we opposed. Southwest management offered to extend by up to three months their previously stated desire to conclude the arbitration process by December 31. In the end, the arbitration board accepted our position that the following twelve hearing dates should remain in place: October 11-14, November 14-17, and December 13-16. The parties also agreed to reserve January 31 through February 2 for additional arbitration sessions, if necessary. Arbitration hearings will take place in Washington, with times and places to be determined.

I do not have a dog in this fight but that name would have me checking my six if I was SWA FO. If there is a more experienced smarter labor attorney around I have not heard of them.

Dan Katz represented the Morris pilots.

With out going into all that ancient history, the Morris pilots were none too happy with his results.

 

[Sacha]

It was fair per the arbritrator--probably fairer than could be agreed upon by either side.

One side had wide bodies, the other didn't. This led to fences off of the widebody equipment. Other than that, it was a DOH merger.

Sure there was animosity on both sides, which is probably a good indication it was somewhere in the middle.

Does this answer your questions?

Some animosity? There was a lot of animosity. For years. There were Republic pilot friends of mine who all Vietnam vets, F4's, A4 drivers who were early 70's hires at Hughes Airwest, who still couldn't hold anything but the left seat of an old,broken down DC9 in the late 80's, while guys 20 years younger or more with 84 hire dates at Northwest were left seat in the DC10,757 after being on the property for 5 or 6 years. No big deal. That was fair right?

"this led to fences off of the wide body equipment. Other than that,it was a DOH merger"

Sounds good to me. DOH merger. Fence ATL and the 717's. And rescind the pay upgrade for the 717. Sounds fair to me.

Also, you might want to expound a little further as to the animosity on BOTH sides of Republic/Northwest. Why were the Northwest pilots upset? I realize if you actually put it out there, it may expose the hypocrisy of many ALPA pilots in general and more than a few ALPA pilots on this forum from other airlines in particular. There is that darn "Emperor with No Clothes" again.

 

[BlueBlood]

My bud at SWA tells me that Dan Katz wasn't AAI's first choice either, it was Jeff Freund but SWAPA already had him on retainer.

 

[Dash Power]

My bud at SWA tells me that Dan Katz wasn't AAI's first choice either, it was Jeff Freund but SWAPA already had him on retainer.

And Dan Katz wasn't AAI's second choice because Swapa have them on retainer also. (can't remember the name)

Dan Katz was the third and basically last choice in the pilot seniority integration game.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I do not have a dog in this fight but that name would have me checking my six if I was SWA FO. If there is a more experienced smarter labor attorney around I have not heard of them.

He got a great deal for the JA guys in the JA/AS merger.

Dan Katz was the third and basically last choice in the pilot seniority integration game.

You wish.

 

[Dash Power]

He got a great deal for the JA guys in the JA/AS merger.



You wish.

No I don't. I am speaking of facts. Not hopes. That is how it went down.

If you think Morris got a great deal, then he is your man.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Ask the JA guys the deal he got for them. The Morris debacle was a direct result of the SWA "Swingline" culture.

 

[Andy]

Some animosity? There was a lot of animosity. For years. There were Republic pilot friends of mine who all Vietnam vets, F4's, A4 drivers who were early 70's hires at Hughes Airwest, who still couldn't hold anything but the left seat of an old,broken down DC9 in the late 80's, while guys 20 years younger or more with 84 hire dates at Northwest were left seat in the DC10,757 after being on the property for 5 or 6 years. No big deal. That was fair right?

"this led to fences off of the wide body equipment. Other than that,it was a DOH merger"

Sounds good to me. DOH merger. Fence ATL and the 717's. And rescind the pay upgrade for the 717. Sounds fair to me.

Also, you might want to expound a little further as to the animosity on BOTH sides of Republic/Northwest. Why were the Northwest pilots upset? I realize if you actually put it out there, it may expose the hypocrisy of many ALPA pilots in general and more than a few ALPA pilots on this forum from other airlines in particular. There is that darn "Emperor with No Clothes" again.

I got hired by a small Airbus carrier in 1999 that used Northwest's training facility. My very first lunch in the cafeteria some green book guy sat down for lunch with a few of us non-NWA newhires and lectured us the entire meal about red book/green book/blue book. This feels like it's going to be deja vu all over again.

 

[Andy]

Ask the JA guys the deal he got for them. The Morris debacle was a direct result of the SWA "Swingline" culture.

Did Katz represent JA before or after the 1988 JA pilot lawsuit? http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/873/213/432339/

Katz was lead for US Airways pilots. Who represented the America West pilots? How'd that turn out? It's very hazy - can anyone refresh my memory? What? The Easties were so happy that they created a new union? Happy happy joy joy.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/attachments/article/75/Nicolau Arbitration Award.pdf

Thanks for taking us for a ride in the wayback machine by pointing to Jet America/Alaska Airlines as a Katz success story.

 

[Dash Power]

Ask the JA guys the deal he got for them. The Morris debacle was a direct result of the SWA "Swingline" culture.

He did a great job for all 95 Jet America pilots.

They had 8, yes that is eight airplanes. That is the resume you have your careers future resting comfortably?

You avoid the point that your man Katz represented pilots that were stapled. If he is the man, how did he legally fail in getting the Morris pilots other than a staple.

I have first hand knowledge. You don't. He promised the Morris pilots much more and did not deliver. Some of my best SWA friends were original Morris pilots. I know that history as well as they do. They are are all thrilled that Katz is the opposing attorney in this integration. They realize how incapable he was for them.

Keep grabbing at straws and telling your self that culture trumps a judges decision on labor law.

But I get it. You need to be confident in your team. Just like the Vikings fans hope Donavan McNabb can bring them the Lombardi Trophy this year.

 

[Schwanker]

An agreement to an arbritrated SL was made if negotiations would not work (which rarely if ever work). Why is SWAPA backtracking on the agreement?

It seems to me SWAPA is trying to bully AT pilots to force them into an unfair list. Why the fear mongering? Why is SWAPA afraid of arbitration? Don't understand.

An agreement was reached with SWA, SWAPA and AT ALPA. Why not follow it? Arbritation time should be coming soon--just get it done! ALPA is following the process and timeline. Again, why does SWAPA fear a fair integration?

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

 

[Andy]

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

Schwanker, the reason why I asked for a copy of the 4 party process agreement is to see if both sides are following the agreement. You're assuming that the process is being followed by AT. I'm not as confident with that assessment.
There has already been one AirTran pilot who posted that they were insulted by some of the wording in the process agreement. That was a red flag to me.

Those of us on the outside have no idea what's in the language of the document so let's not jump to the conclusion that the agreement is currently being followed by either side. On the same note, don't assume that there's no escape door in the agreement. There's almost always an escape door.

As for fear of arbitration, this is one that could produce a strange result. I'm willing to stick my neck out and predict that it'll be somewhere between a stapling of SWA pilots below all Airtran pilots and a stapling of Airtran pilots below all SWA pilots. How's that for a prediction?

 

[Dash Power]

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

No one is avoiding the question because this the answer is too obvious.

But, I will try to satisfy your request even though there is a low likely hood that you will feel the answer.

SWA requested the extention. Swapa agreed and the AAI MEC did not (shocker). SWA, and most would agree, a negotiated settlement is better for the company than the unknown potential of an arbitrated one.

All sides are respectfully following the process agreement. No contract showed be in stone if there are mutual beneficial needs that are discovered.

 

[Sacha]

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

Why not answer my questions regarding the Northwest/Republic arbitration?
It appears that you want to change the subject because you know it was very unfair to a large group of Republic pilots. You seem to know so much about what we should do and what is fair for all but at the same time you dismiss what happened on your very own property. I see you were on the Dc10. Perhaps you yourself benefited personally from that fair and equitable arbitration? What was your hire date? Maybe your story could alleviate a lot of the "fear" as you call it from the SWA guys. But then again...it may also scare the crap out of the Trannies.....

 

[Schwanker]

Why not answer my questions regarding the Northwest/Republic arbitration?
It appears that you want to change the subject because you know it was very unfair to a large group of Republic pilots. You seem to know so much about what we should do and what is fair for all but at the same time you dismiss what happened on your very own property. I see you were on the Dc10. Perhaps you yourself benefited personally from that fair and equitable arbitration? What was your hire date? Maybe your story could alleviate a lot of the "fear" as you call it from the SWA guys. But then again...it may also scare the crap out of the Trannies.....

That merger is water under the bridge. As I said, the most contentious part was whether or not Republic pilots flew new jets or were fenced off of these jets. I'm not emotional about it...just the facts.

SWA does have a strong hand in arbritration to do better than relative or DOH. AT did have faster upgrades, unique routes (slots) SWA didn't have, and greater growth (relatively of course). SWA payscales and corporate stability is a huge plus. Why all the fear mongering? I understand the desire to steam roll the other pilot group, but they chose option B...let an arbritor decide. Why the SWAPA fear?

 

[Sacha]

That merger is water under the bridge. As I said, the most contentious part was whether or not Republic pilots flew new jets or were fenced off of these jets. I'm not emotional about it...just the facts.

SWA does have a strong hand in arbritration to do better than relative or DOH. AT did have faster upgrades, unique routes (slots) SWA didn't have, and greater growth (relatively of course). SWA payscales and corporate stability is a huge plus. Why all the fear mongering? I understand the desire to steam roll the other pilot group, but they chose option B...let an arbritor decide. Why the SWAPA fear?

When it doesn't make your case it's "water under the bridge"
When it makes your case it's "legal precedent"

Typical ALPA.

You dismiss your "fair arbitration" result as just "an issue of some newer jets"
Not a big deal except they were all much higher paying wide bodies.

The fact that you won't honestly address where you personally fit into this "fair and equitable" arbitration tells me all I need to know. You list the DC 10 on your avatar along with a picture. You most likely benefitted greatly at the expense of the Republic pilots and then you have the balz to come on here and lecture SWA pilots about fairness? Hypocrite.

 

[dicko]

Dan Katz represented the Morris pilots.

With out going into all that ancient history, the Morris pilots were none too happy with his results.

Here is one of the differences in the current 'situation':

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

United States Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit.

 

[Schwanker]

When it doesn't make your case it's "water under the bridge"
When it makes your case it's "legal precedent"

Typical ALPA.

You dismiss your "fair arbitration" result as just "an issue of some newer jets"
Not a big deal except they were all much higher paying wide bodies.

The fact that you won't honestly address where you personally fit into this "fair and equitable" arbitration tells me all I need to know. You list the DC 10 on your avatar along with a picture. You most likely benefitted greatly at the expense of the Republic pilots and then you have the balz to come on here and lecture SWA pilots about fairness? Hypocrite.

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

 

[Dash Power]

Here is one of the differences in the current 'situation':

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

United States Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit.

Amongst many other differences for sure.

My point is mainly that he led the Morris pilots to believe that there would be a completely different result. An adequate representation of 95 pilots 24 years ago is hardly the resume I would put on the top of the stack.

That would not be the attorney I would want arguing for my future. And fortunately is not.

 

[ASADFW7]

Without AAI and the 8000 plus employees the 37000 plus employees at SWA would never survive? The whole fricken airline industry knows who SWA is and their business model, even AAI is using many plays out of the SWA model. What does AAI do that the world is modeling? Xm radio? I do not know please tell us.

Seriously, SWA is bigger than the current pilots on property, though many have years adding to the successful product that SWA has grown into and continued to provide. SWA created the business model before I became a pilot and will continue after I retire. The AAI purchase is a small part of the SWA growth and evolution of their product. But, they are a fraction of the overall product. 1740 AAI pilots are not going to stop SWA from doing what they are going to do within their business model. What AAI has as a company to offer in the SWA business model has very little to do with the AAI pilots.

The AAI pilot group owns nothing to offer. As for the industry, each job has a value to the career of the employee. Right now SWA pilots are employees at a better company and have a better value of a career at their employer. This hasn't always been the case, but even when it wasn't the case by per hour compensation thousands of SWA employees became millionaires through stock and profit sharing. How many millionaires has AAI made of their employees? A handful of management?

If you take the pilot ego out of it, and just place a value on a career at AAI versus SWA and came up with a ratio, the AAI group would be disappointed where they placed. But being a big fish in a small pond doesn't last forever, and the bigger pond is making small fish out of a lot of employees including the pilots from AAI.

As for the financial health of AAI, they didn't need to file for bankruptcy to prove their financial struggles, SWA management knows their health. You know you do not have to throw someone in the pool to know that they are not a good swimmer to prove a point. If the point needs to be made, perhaps SWA management can make it to the AAI employee group.

 

[Bill Nelson]

That would not be the attorney I would want arguing for my future. And fortunately is not.

Katz isn't who ALPA wanted either but they were unprepared and he was all that was left.

 

[Sacha]

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

Hit a sore spot didn't I?

Your airline rolled over the Republic pilots in arbitration. Fact.
It resulted in Red book Green book. Fact
You want to pretend it didn't happen or doesn't matter anymore. Fact.
When questioned, you divert. Fact.

That makes you a hypocrite in any book. FACT

The FACT that you come on this forum and accuse the SWA pilots of not playing fair given your airlines history makes you a true mental idiot.

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

 

[Schwanker]

Hit a sore spot didn't I?

Your airline rolled over the Republic pilots in arbitration. Fact.
It resulted in Red book Green book. Fact
You want to pretend it didn't happen or doesn't matter anymore. Fact.
When questioned, you divert. Fact.

That makes you a hypocrite in any book. FACT

The FACT that you come on this forum and accuse the SWA pilots of not playing fair given your airlines history makes you a true mental idiot.

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

Not lecturing big fella--just asking a question. Guess you're not capable of answering. So be it. Enjoy arbritration.

 

[tzskipper]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

 

[shootr]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

That is a completely valid statement and I agree with it 100%. Thank you! But it has nothing to do with the Southwest/Airtran acquisition and merger of seniority lists.

shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Schwanker, the reason why I asked for a copy of the 4 party process agreement is to see if both sides are following the agreement. You're assuming that the process is being followed by AT. I'm not as confident with that assessment.
There has already been one AirTran pilot who posted that they were insulted by some of the wording in the process agreement. That was a red flag to me.

Those of us on the outside have no idea what's in the language of the document so let's not jump to the conclusion that the agreement is currently being followed by either side. On the same note, don't assume that there's no escape door in the agreement. There's almost always an escape door.

As for fear of arbitration, this is one that could produce a strange result. I'm willing to stick my neck out and predict that it'll be somewhere between a stapling of SWA pilots below all Airtran pilots and a stapling of Airtran pilots
below all SWA pilots. How's that for a prediction?

I have a feeling Andy plenty of high cost lawyers are looking over that agreement and getting ready for possible arbitration. Looking at recent awards, with two airlines with similar aircraft types and business plans (domestic LCCs with limited International flying), I would guess the award will be A HECK OF A LOT BETTER than the first offer. JMO. And the pay will eventually follow, no chance of a permanent B-scale. Godspeed!


OYS