ALPA MEC tells Gary Kelly no thanks..again

[Andy]

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

Schwanker, the reason why I asked for a copy of the 4 party process agreement is to see if both sides are following the agreement. You're assuming that the process is being followed by AT. I'm not as confident with that assessment.
There has already been one AirTran pilot who posted that they were insulted by some of the wording in the process agreement. That was a red flag to me.

Those of us on the outside have no idea what's in the language of the document so let's not jump to the conclusion that the agreement is currently being followed by either side. On the same note, don't assume that there's no escape door in the agreement. There's almost always an escape door.

As for fear of arbitration, this is one that could produce a strange result. I'm willing to stick my neck out and predict that it'll be somewhere between a stapling of SWA pilots below all Airtran pilots and a stapling of Airtran pilots below all SWA pilots. How's that for a prediction?

 

[Dash Power]

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

No one is avoiding the question because this the answer is too obvious.

But, I will try to satisfy your request even though there is a low likely hood that you will feel the answer.

SWA requested the extention. Swapa agreed and the AAI MEC did not (shocker). SWA, and most would agree, a negotiated settlement is better for the company than the unknown potential of an arbitrated one.

All sides are respectfully following the process agreement. No contract showed be in stone if there are mutual beneficial needs that are discovered.

 

[Sacha]

Now why don't the SWA guys answer the questions instead of change the subject?

Why not follow the process agreement which was laid out? It appears the AT side is. It appears to an outsider SWAPA fears an equitable integration which will be more likely with arbritration. Am I right?

Why not answer my questions regarding the Northwest/Republic arbitration?
It appears that you want to change the subject because you know it was very unfair to a large group of Republic pilots. You seem to know so much about what we should do and what is fair for all but at the same time you dismiss what happened on your very own property. I see you were on the Dc10. Perhaps you yourself benefited personally from that fair and equitable arbitration? What was your hire date? Maybe your story could alleviate a lot of the "fear" as you call it from the SWA guys. But then again...it may also scare the crap out of the Trannies.....

 

[Schwanker]

Why not answer my questions regarding the Northwest/Republic arbitration?
It appears that you want to change the subject because you know it was very unfair to a large group of Republic pilots. You seem to know so much about what we should do and what is fair for all but at the same time you dismiss what happened on your very own property. I see you were on the Dc10. Perhaps you yourself benefited personally from that fair and equitable arbitration? What was your hire date? Maybe your story could alleviate a lot of the "fear" as you call it from the SWA guys. But then again...it may also scare the crap out of the Trannies.....

That merger is water under the bridge. As I said, the most contentious part was whether or not Republic pilots flew new jets or were fenced off of these jets. I'm not emotional about it...just the facts.

SWA does have a strong hand in arbritration to do better than relative or DOH. AT did have faster upgrades, unique routes (slots) SWA didn't have, and greater growth (relatively of course). SWA payscales and corporate stability is a huge plus. Why all the fear mongering? I understand the desire to steam roll the other pilot group, but they chose option B...let an arbritor decide. Why the SWAPA fear?

 

[Sacha]

That merger is water under the bridge. As I said, the most contentious part was whether or not Republic pilots flew new jets or were fenced off of these jets. I'm not emotional about it...just the facts.

SWA does have a strong hand in arbritration to do better than relative or DOH. AT did have faster upgrades, unique routes (slots) SWA didn't have, and greater growth (relatively of course). SWA payscales and corporate stability is a huge plus. Why all the fear mongering? I understand the desire to steam roll the other pilot group, but they chose option B...let an arbritor decide. Why the SWAPA fear?

When it doesn't make your case it's "water under the bridge"
When it makes your case it's "legal precedent"

Typical ALPA.

You dismiss your "fair arbitration" result as just "an issue of some newer jets"
Not a big deal except they were all much higher paying wide bodies.

The fact that you won't honestly address where you personally fit into this "fair and equitable" arbitration tells me all I need to know. You list the DC 10 on your avatar along with a picture. You most likely benefitted greatly at the expense of the Republic pilots and then you have the balz to come on here and lecture SWA pilots about fairness? Hypocrite.

 

[dicko]

Dan Katz represented the Morris pilots.

With out going into all that ancient history, the Morris pilots were none too happy with his results.

Here is one of the differences in the current 'situation':

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

United States Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit.

 

[Schwanker]

When it doesn't make your case it's "water under the bridge"
When it makes your case it's "legal precedent"

Typical ALPA.

You dismiss your "fair arbitration" result as just "an issue of some newer jets"
Not a big deal except they were all much higher paying wide bodies.

The fact that you won't honestly address where you personally fit into this "fair and equitable" arbitration tells me all I need to know. You list the DC 10 on your avatar along with a picture. You most likely benefitted greatly at the expense of the Republic pilots and then you have the balz to come on here and lecture SWA pilots about fairness? Hypocrite.

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

 

[Dash Power]

Here is one of the differences in the current 'situation':

"Morris was sold without labor protective agreements, that Morris pilots were not under contract, and that Morris pilots had no agreements with Morris to protect their seniority."

United States Court of Appeals,
Tenth Circuit.

Amongst many other differences for sure.

My point is mainly that he led the Morris pilots to believe that there would be a completely different result. An adequate representation of 95 pilots 24 years ago is hardly the resume I would put on the top of the stack.

That would not be the attorney I would want arguing for my future. And fortunately is not.

 

[ASADFW7]

Without AAI and the 8000 plus employees the 37000 plus employees at SWA would never survive? The whole fricken airline industry knows who SWA is and their business model, even AAI is using many plays out of the SWA model. What does AAI do that the world is modeling? Xm radio? I do not know please tell us.

Seriously, SWA is bigger than the current pilots on property, though many have years adding to the successful product that SWA has grown into and continued to provide. SWA created the business model before I became a pilot and will continue after I retire. The AAI purchase is a small part of the SWA growth and evolution of their product. But, they are a fraction of the overall product. 1740 AAI pilots are not going to stop SWA from doing what they are going to do within their business model. What AAI has as a company to offer in the SWA business model has very little to do with the AAI pilots.

The AAI pilot group owns nothing to offer. As for the industry, each job has a value to the career of the employee. Right now SWA pilots are employees at a better company and have a better value of a career at their employer. This hasn't always been the case, but even when it wasn't the case by per hour compensation thousands of SWA employees became millionaires through stock and profit sharing. How many millionaires has AAI made of their employees? A handful of management?

If you take the pilot ego out of it, and just place a value on a career at AAI versus SWA and came up with a ratio, the AAI group would be disappointed where they placed. But being a big fish in a small pond doesn't last forever, and the bigger pond is making small fish out of a lot of employees including the pilots from AAI.

As for the financial health of AAI, they didn't need to file for bankruptcy to prove their financial struggles, SWA management knows their health. You know you do not have to throw someone in the pool to know that they are not a good swimmer to prove a point. If the point needs to be made, perhaps SWA management can make it to the AAI employee group.

 

[Bill Nelson]

That would not be the attorney I would want arguing for my future. And fortunately is not.

Katz isn't who ALPA wanted either but they were unprepared and he was all that was left.

 

[Sacha]

Bad assumption. I wasn't even on the list during the NWA/Republic merger. It does show your lack of mental intellect to resort to name calling--Hypocrite.

I guess that's what you do when you can't answer the question. Instead of a fair integration, you want to change the subject and/or start calling names.

Good luck steam rolling over the AT guys. I know good guys on both lists. Obviously there are some mental idiots among the ranks as well.

Hit a sore spot didn't I?

Your airline rolled over the Republic pilots in arbitration. Fact.
It resulted in Red book Green book. Fact
You want to pretend it didn't happen or doesn't matter anymore. Fact.
When questioned, you divert. Fact.

That makes you a hypocrite in any book. FACT

The FACT that you come on this forum and accuse the SWA pilots of not playing fair given your airlines history makes you a true mental idiot.

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

 

[Schwanker]

Hit a sore spot didn't I?

Your airline rolled over the Republic pilots in arbitration. Fact.
It resulted in Red book Green book. Fact
You want to pretend it didn't happen or doesn't matter anymore. Fact.
When questioned, you divert. Fact.

That makes you a hypocrite in any book. FACT

The FACT that you come on this forum and accuse the SWA pilots of not playing fair given your airlines history makes you a true mental idiot.

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

Not lecturing big fella--just asking a question. Guess you're not capable of answering. So be it. Enjoy arbritration.

 

[tzskipper]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

 

[shootr]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

That is a completely valid statement and I agree with it 100%. Thank you! But it has nothing to do with the Southwest/Airtran acquisition and merger of seniority lists.

shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Schwanker, the reason why I asked for a copy of the 4 party process agreement is to see if both sides are following the agreement. You're assuming that the process is being followed by AT. I'm not as confident with that assessment.
There has already been one AirTran pilot who posted that they were insulted by some of the wording in the process agreement. That was a red flag to me.

Those of us on the outside have no idea what's in the language of the document so let's not jump to the conclusion that the agreement is currently being followed by either side. On the same note, don't assume that there's no escape door in the agreement. There's almost always an escape door.

As for fear of arbitration, this is one that could produce a strange result. I'm willing to stick my neck out and predict that it'll be somewhere between a stapling of SWA pilots below all Airtran pilots and a stapling of Airtran pilots
below all SWA pilots. How's that for a prediction?

I have a feeling Andy plenty of high cost lawyers are looking over that agreement and getting ready for possible arbitration. Looking at recent awards, with two airlines with similar aircraft types and business plans (domestic LCCs with limited International flying), I would guess the award will be A HECK OF A LOT BETTER than the first offer. JMO. And the pay will eventually follow, no chance of a permanent B-scale. Godspeed!


OYS