ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[Flyby1206]

Are there any logical reasons why one list, perhaps with fences, would be a bad idea for pilots?

How much will it cost? Who cares? Is there anyone who doesn't think that this is the best possible time to ask for and get changes?

Eagle is for sale, maybe APA will purchase them and then they will be one list

 

[JoeMerchant]

It's unfair for anyone to be bumped out of a seat, including an RJ Captain, but also unfair for a 20-year RJ Captain to be placed on a combined list ahead of junior mainline pilots, and that's exactly what your buddies wanted done. Even with fences that protect current seat/equipment positions, it would not be right for a regional pilot to have seniority rights over the junior mainline pilots in bidding future vacancies (or AEs in DAL lingo).

How would your scenario happen with ALPA merger policy? It wouldn't, because that would give a windfall to someone at the expense of another. The "DOH seniority grab" was fabricated to scare Delta pilots, and it worked. Likewise, a pure staple does not protect the senior regional pilot..... but then you don't seem to concerned about them.......

The fact is, mainline pilots always want "super-seniority" over the regional pilot when things start to move backwards......

 

[PCL_128]

How would your scenario happen with ALPA merger policy? It wouldn't, because that would give a windfall to someone at the expense of another.

In my opinion, a "windfall" just took place at AWA/AAA. The policy attempts to avoid it, but situations placed before an arbitrator are extremely unpredictable. If a regional's merger committee pushed for a DOH integration before an arbitrator, then that's certainly a possible outcome. I think for any of these "one-list" proposals to ever become a reality, the regional MEC in question will have to agree ahead of time to a reasonable non-DOH integration.

Likewise, a pure staple does not protect the senior regional pilot..... but then you don't seem to concerned about them.......

I'm concerned about the seniority rights of everyone, but regional pilots aren't entitled to any seniority over their mainline counterparts in such an integration. No regional pilot should ever be placed ahead of a mainline pilot in a mainline/regional integration. They should have fences to protect their current equipment/seats to prevent the mainline guys from bumping them after an integration, but any sort of DOH integration that would give them seniority above a junior mainline pilot would be unacceptable.

 

[Morning Wood]

Two problems with "one branded list" as I see it. Many regionals serve more than one master. How do you decide which of the pilots goes to Delta's seniority list when a company flies for 3 or more majors? Secondly, what happens to the "one list" when the major gets bought or merges with someone else? Both companies are not going to keep all the employees, including pilots.

 

[eaglefly]

Moot point for AMR.

It will never happen there.

Never.

 

[Palomino]

Moot point for AMR.

It will never happen there.

Never.

sounds convincing...

 

[michael707767]

How would your scenario happen with ALPA merger policy? It wouldn't, because that would give a windfall to someone at the expense of another. The "DOH seniority grab" was fabricated to scare Delta pilots, and it worked. ..

Fabricated...maybe. But I had more than one CMR pilot during that time tell me to my face that they were going to get DOH.

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

All of you are talking about staples, mergers, fences etc...

All I read this to mean is that AMR has stated it basically wants to ditch Eagle and those higher than industry average costs.

APA is stating that when that happens they want that flying as opposed to having it sent out for RFPs to cheaper regionals.

Where exactly has APA said they give two s^%t$ about Eagle pilots?

Eagle pilots seem to be facing a very dire future here. The next salvo from AMR will be an ultimatum to accept massive concessions which put Eagle in line with most other regionals or face divestiture. I seriously doubt they will be facing a single seniority list.

Good news is NJA has a very good starting wage. I would look into it.

 

[PCL_128]

BigShot, it stands to reason that a single list with EGL would be neccessary under such a proposal, as AMR can't simply ditch all of its RJ feed. Someone will have to continue to fly the RJs, and there would be no way to have the AMR pilots take over that flying in one fell swoop. There would have to be some sort of integration with EGL in order to allow all flying to be on one list.

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

BigShot, it stands to reason that a single list with EGL would be neccessary under such a proposal, as AMR can't simply ditch all of its RJ feed. Someone will have to continue to fly the RJs, and there would be no way to have the AMR pilots take over that flying in one fell swoop. There would have to be some sort of integration with EGL in order to allow all flying to be on one list.

How many Eagle pilots are still furloughs? That may play into this. Whatever happens it won't be pretty.

 

[PCL_128]

How many Eagle pilots are still furloughs? That may play into this. Whatever happens it won't be pretty.

Eagle pilots furloughed? I think you mean AMR pilots. About 2000+. Doesn't really matter though, because you can't instantly train them to replace a couple thousand EGL pilots on their equipment. There's simply no way to replace Eagle or to eliminate it. The RJ feed will have to continue flying, and you'll need the RJ pilots to continue doing it. I'm not sure exactly what sort of system the APA is proposing to take care of that, but I'm sure they have something in mind.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yes, I was.

I was there also on the DFW/ATL end of the push and you write the truth. Again (for the 10,000th time - Dan Ford is who I quote when I write "look at ALPA's past mergers...paycheck, or equipment type, either way it is a staple.")

I don't know why something that is common sense generates such debate. Of course there are going to be crew room rumors of some guy who said he was going to be a Captain on a 767. You have one of those in every crowd, but, amongst the leadership there were no expectation of anything other than a staple with fences. It was not ALPA policy to publish that expectation up front, but it would have been a good move to try and work the PID out with the Delta MEC first given the absence support at national.

At Delta there will be a political backlash against any attempt to merger lists with a pilot group that they see as not meeting Delta's standards, whether it be background, flying, equipment, or some other criteria. I do not know how you get around that issue without convincing pilots that ending outsourcing is more important than maintaining exclusivity.

Education is part of the solution.

At American there are a whole lot of MD80's due for replacement. As fuel prices bring immediate pressure to bear on fleet renewal the APA may have figured out and honestly recognized the threat to mainline flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Are you really this dense, or do you just pretend to be? Trying to weasel your way into 20 years of mainline seniority is a seniority grab. That's what your RJDC buddies tried to do. A mainline group trying to negotiate for a single list isn't a seniority grab, because they already own the seniority. Really, this isn't that complicated.

Can you explain how your post is anything other than a distinction with no real difference?

It is politics - the mainline pilots have the power to make it popular with mainline pilots and mainline pilots are the only pilots on the property with the power to maybe pull it off.

Still, let us be intellectual enough to set aside our bigotries and admit onelist makes good sense on its own merits, regardless of who's idea it is.

 

[PCL_128]

Can you explain how your post is anything other than a distinction with no real difference?

The distinction is important. Regional pilots trying to force one list in an attempt to circumvent the usual seniority system is an important distinction from mainline pilots trying to create a single list in order to stop the whipsaw and the outsourcing.

Again, if the regional pilots want to make single lists a possibility, then they'll have to give up the idea that they're owed any seniority on a merged list. A straight staple with fences to protect RJ equipment/seats is the only acceptable solution. That is the simple political reality. If they want to argue that point, then they'll only hold up any progress on this issue.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL - you are right and we echo each other in a couple of posts there. Although it is reality, it is an unfortunate reality, because ALPA does have a merger and fragmentation policy and one group prostrating themselves should not be policy. After all, isn't the result simply the other side trying to circumvent the seniority integration process?

ALPA's current position seems to be, "work it out amongst yourselves and leave us out of it until you have your solution." That kind of leadership is not going to get everyone together.

I'm very glad the APA is bringing some light to this issue.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA's current position seems to be, "work it out amongst yourselves and leave us out of it until you have your solution." That kind of leadership is not going to get everyone together.

Unfortunately, that's the only way that ALPA can handle seniority mergers. For ALPA to come down and tell two groups how to merge would represent an enormous conflict of interest. The integration has to be settled between the parties, or an arbitrator has to settle it. It may create a messy situation, but not quite as messy as a situation created by ALPA trying to dictate terms of a merger to two pilot groups.

 

[aa73]

APA has been criticized for not merging fairly and it has cost them - when the Reno pilots sicked out and I'm sure the TWA pilots can not stand the APA.

Fins - the Reno pilots did not sick out. The AA pilots did - because AMR management was trying to operate Reno as a seperate low cost entity doing what was now our flying on the West Coast, i.e. a total scope bust.

73

 

[~~~^~~~]

aa73 - Thanks, I got that story third hand.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unfortunately, that's the only way that ALPA can handle seniority mergers.

ALPA has to have a fair policy and follow it.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA has to have a fair policy and follow it.

Define "fair." That's the problem. To me, "fair" is DOH for mergers involving two mainline carriers, and a staple for mergers involving a mainline and a regional carrier. I'd imagine that you have a different idea of "fair," and so would lots of other people. There's a reason that ALPA has the current merger policy. You just can't get enough people to agree on what a "fair" policy would be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Define "fair." That's the problem. To me, "fair" is DOH for mergers involving two mainline carriers, and a staple for mergers involving a mainline and a regional carrier. I'd imagine that you have a different idea of "fair," and so would lots of other people. There's a reason that ALPA has the current merger policy. You just can't get enough people to agree on what a "fair" policy would be.

1. So there is still a difference between "regional" and "mainline" carriers within ALPA.... thanks for clarifying that there is still a double standard....

2. How exactly do "fences" work when there are furloughs at the mainline? Do the mainline folks not get to flowback now because of these "fences"?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fabricated...maybe. But I had more than one CMR pilot during that time tell me to my face that they were going to get DOH.

.... and I have heard many mainline pilots say that we aren't qualified to be Delta pilots..... Doesn't matter what individual pilots say.... What matters is ALPA merger policy and whether or not we are going to try and stop the whipsaw....

Doesn't really matter what individual ASA or CMR pilots say..... many were probably fuk!ng with you....fuk!ing with Delta pilots is considered a sport by many at ASA and CMR......

 

[PCL_128]

1. So there is still a difference between "regional" and "mainline" carriers within ALPA.... thanks for clarifying that there is still a double standard....

In my opinion, yes, there's a big difference. The ALPA leadership might say something different. I'm just giving you my opinion. But really, that's the whole point, because as I said, everyone will have a different opinion about how a "fair" integration would have to be set up.

2. How exactly do "fences" work when there are furloughs at the mainline? Do the mainline folks not get to flowback now because of these "fences"?

You could set them up in any number of ways. If it was up to me, then in the event of furloughs, yes, the mainline folks would flow back into the RJ equipment. That certainly wouldn't be the only way to set it up, however.

 

[JoeMerchant]

In my opinion, yes, there's a big difference. The ALPA leadership might say something different. I'm just giving you my opinion. But really, that's the whole point, because as I said, everyone will have a different opinion about how a "fair" integration would have to be set up.

The ALPA leadership may say something "different", but they are thinking the same way you are.... and that is why you will never get another regional to join ALPA..... The Skywest pilots and the Colgan pilots were smart..... You can't treat regional pilots differently and then be surprised when they don't want to join the "Mainline Pilots Association"

We will never change each others minds, but don't expect regional pilots to support ALPA while they support this "apartheid" approach....

You could set them up in any number of ways. If it was up to me, then in the event of furloughs, yes, the mainline folks would flow back into the RJ equipment. That certainly wouldn't be the only way to set it up, however.

..... Ahhh..... thanks for taking the bait.... Then you aren't really talking about "fences"....If it was a fence, you couldn't bid into the RJ if you were furloughed.....

You see, mainline pilots want their cake and they want to eat it.... When times are tough and people start losing their jobs, those RJs start to look good....

Where would a furloughed mainline pilot go when he "flowed back" into the RJ? Would he start at the bottom at 22 bucks an hour on reserve in the right seat? I doubt the mainline folks would accept that.....

 

[PCL_128]

The ALPA leadership may say something "different", but they are thinking the same way you are.... and that is why you will never get another regional to join ALPA..... The Skywest pilots and the Colgan pilots were smart..... You can't treat regional pilots differently and then be surprised when they don't want to join the "Mainline Pilots Association"

We will never change each others minds, but don't expect regional pilots to support ALPA while they support this "apartheid" approach....



.....

"Apartheid?" Melodramatic much? There's nothing shocking about the revelation that regionals are different from mainline carriers. You have no reasonable career expectations of ever flying anything bigger than a 76-seat jet at your carrier. So, the idea that you should get the same sort of integration that a guy at another mainline carrier that already has widebody equipment would get is just ridiculous.

Ahhh..... thanks for taking the bait.... Then you aren't really talking about "fences"....If it was a fence, you couldn't bid into the RJ if you were furloughed.....

You see, mainline pilots want their cake and they want to eat it.... When times are tough and people start losing their jobs, those RJs start to look good....


Where would a furloughed mainline pilot go when he "flowed back" into the RJ? Would he start at the bottom at 22 bucks an hour on reserve in the right seat? I doubt the mainline folks would accept that.....

Like I said, there are many different kinds of fences. What I proposed is a fence that would only drop if furloughs took place. Under normal circumstances, the fence would stand and the mainline pilots wouldn't be able to bump you down with a bid into the regional equipment.

 

[JoeMerchant]

"Apartheid?" Melodramatic much? There's nothing shocking about the revelation that regionals are different from mainline carriers. You have no reasonable career expectations of ever flying anything bigger than a 76-seat jet at your carrier. So, the idea that you should get the same sort of integration that a guy at another mainline carrier that already has widebody equipment would get is just ridiculous.

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations"..... Can you define "career expectations"?.... Does ALPA define "career expectations"?....

Did you know that Southern Airways pilots who hired on to fly the Metroliner at Southern, retired as Northwest 747 pilots? How was that possible? The "career expectations" argument is a dead end.....

Like I said, there are many different kinds of fences. What I proposed is a fence that would only drop if furloughs took place. Under normal circumstances, the fence would stand and the mainline pilots wouldn't be able to bump you down with a bid into the regional equipment.

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

As you said, there are many opinions, but I am interested in protections and not opinions...... If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

 

[PCL_128]

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations

You can live in denial if you so choose, but everyone living in the real world knows that you have no career expectations of flying anything bigger than an RJ. When you choose to make a career out of a feeder carrier, you give control of your career expectations to the people that control the code that you fly: the mainline pilots. If you don't like that, you can always try to get a job at a mainline carrier like everyone else.

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

Under the scenario I proposed, the fences would drop with furloughs, so seniority would dictate that they would be displaced to whatever position they bid and could hold. That would likely be the left seat, and it would be at whatever rate their YOS dictated. But like I said, that's just my idea of a good system.

If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

What you don't seem to understand is that you don't have any protection over your job right now at all. You fly for a feeder carrier, so your flying is subject to RFP, as we've seen over and over again. A one-list gives you at least some semblance of job protection. With your seniority, even being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list wouldn't put you at any risk of a furlough or even a displacement to the right seat. The ones that would be at risk would be the more junior pilots, but the risk would be worth it to end the whipsaw. Apparently you're too blind to see that.

 

[737 Pylt]

.... and I have heard many mainline pilots say that we aren't qualified to be Delta pilots..... Doesn't matter what individual pilots say.... What matters is ALPA merger policy and whether or not we are going to try and stop the whipsaw....

And your and your BJ buddy danno have done nothing to contribute to it but to file a frivilous lawsuit, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to hard dues paying members, and in the end, the only winner was your **censored** lawyer!

Doesn't really matter what individual ASA or CMR pilots say..... many were probably fuk!ng with you....fuk!ing with Delta pilots is considered a sport by many at ASA and CMR......

So is messing with ASA pilots that fly the ATR and have an ugly older girlfriend!

737

 

[737 Pylt]

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations"..... Can you define "career expectations"?.... Does ALPA define "career expectations"?....

Since you and the rest of your BJ buddies at the rjdc have dui's or no college, you're stuck in the regionals....Get used to it sport!

Did you know that Southern Airways pilots who hired on to fly the Metroliner at Southern, retired as Northwest 747 pilots? How was that possible? The "career expectations" argument is a dead end.....

Did you know that ATR pilots that sue their union trying to have at a seniority snag from their legacy carrier that they fly feed for are branded as "scabs?"

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

Bumping you out of your seat, just like you tried to do to thousands of Delta pilots, of course!

As you said, there are many opinions, but I am interested in protections and not opinions...... If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

Just sue them JB, that seemed to work real well the first time around!

737

 

[eaglefly]

Eagle pilots furloughed? I think you mean AMR pilots. About 2000+. Doesn't really matter though, because you can't instantly train them to replace a couple thousand EGL pilots on their equipment. There's simply no way to replace Eagle or to eliminate it. The RJ feed will have to continue flying, and you'll need the RJ pilots to continue doing it. I'm not sure exactly what sort of system the APA is proposing to take care of that, but I'm sure they have something in mind.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

AMR has ALREADY announced an intent to divest, so threatening our contract doesn't work.

Most likely, it will be a spinoff to the shareholders. Certain segments of Eagle could be sold off, such as our Saab operations and our Northeast flying. It's possible our 135's could be dumped, but since we have staffing problems along with every other regional, most likley no job losses.

2 years from now, a better picture will develop, but even AMR admits any changes will take many months if not a year or two. The highest paid pilots would be the last to feel any pain, which doesn't work well for AMR.

I think you'll see more fireworks on the AA side over the next 18 months, then Eagle.

In fact, I think we'll be quite uneventful in comparison.