ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[PCL_128]

ALPA's current position seems to be, "work it out amongst yourselves and leave us out of it until you have your solution." That kind of leadership is not going to get everyone together.

Unfortunately, that's the only way that ALPA can handle seniority mergers. For ALPA to come down and tell two groups how to merge would represent an enormous conflict of interest. The integration has to be settled between the parties, or an arbitrator has to settle it. It may create a messy situation, but not quite as messy as a situation created by ALPA trying to dictate terms of a merger to two pilot groups.

 

[aa73]

APA has been criticized for not merging fairly and it has cost them - when the Reno pilots sicked out and I'm sure the TWA pilots can not stand the APA.

Fins - the Reno pilots did not sick out. The AA pilots did - because AMR management was trying to operate Reno as a seperate low cost entity doing what was now our flying on the West Coast, i.e. a total scope bust.

73

 

[~~~^~~~]

aa73 - Thanks, I got that story third hand.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unfortunately, that's the only way that ALPA can handle seniority mergers.

ALPA has to have a fair policy and follow it.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA has to have a fair policy and follow it.

Define "fair." That's the problem. To me, "fair" is DOH for mergers involving two mainline carriers, and a staple for mergers involving a mainline and a regional carrier. I'd imagine that you have a different idea of "fair," and so would lots of other people. There's a reason that ALPA has the current merger policy. You just can't get enough people to agree on what a "fair" policy would be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Define "fair." That's the problem. To me, "fair" is DOH for mergers involving two mainline carriers, and a staple for mergers involving a mainline and a regional carrier. I'd imagine that you have a different idea of "fair," and so would lots of other people. There's a reason that ALPA has the current merger policy. You just can't get enough people to agree on what a "fair" policy would be.

1. So there is still a difference between "regional" and "mainline" carriers within ALPA.... thanks for clarifying that there is still a double standard....

2. How exactly do "fences" work when there are furloughs at the mainline? Do the mainline folks not get to flowback now because of these "fences"?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fabricated...maybe. But I had more than one CMR pilot during that time tell me to my face that they were going to get DOH.

.... and I have heard many mainline pilots say that we aren't qualified to be Delta pilots..... Doesn't matter what individual pilots say.... What matters is ALPA merger policy and whether or not we are going to try and stop the whipsaw....

Doesn't really matter what individual ASA or CMR pilots say..... many were probably fuk!ng with you....fuk!ing with Delta pilots is considered a sport by many at ASA and CMR......

 

[PCL_128]

1. So there is still a difference between "regional" and "mainline" carriers within ALPA.... thanks for clarifying that there is still a double standard....

In my opinion, yes, there's a big difference. The ALPA leadership might say something different. I'm just giving you my opinion. But really, that's the whole point, because as I said, everyone will have a different opinion about how a "fair" integration would have to be set up.

2. How exactly do "fences" work when there are furloughs at the mainline? Do the mainline folks not get to flowback now because of these "fences"?

You could set them up in any number of ways. If it was up to me, then in the event of furloughs, yes, the mainline folks would flow back into the RJ equipment. That certainly wouldn't be the only way to set it up, however.

 

[JoeMerchant]

In my opinion, yes, there's a big difference. The ALPA leadership might say something different. I'm just giving you my opinion. But really, that's the whole point, because as I said, everyone will have a different opinion about how a "fair" integration would have to be set up.

The ALPA leadership may say something "different", but they are thinking the same way you are.... and that is why you will never get another regional to join ALPA..... The Skywest pilots and the Colgan pilots were smart..... You can't treat regional pilots differently and then be surprised when they don't want to join the "Mainline Pilots Association"

We will never change each others minds, but don't expect regional pilots to support ALPA while they support this "apartheid" approach....

You could set them up in any number of ways. If it was up to me, then in the event of furloughs, yes, the mainline folks would flow back into the RJ equipment. That certainly wouldn't be the only way to set it up, however.

..... Ahhh..... thanks for taking the bait.... Then you aren't really talking about "fences"....If it was a fence, you couldn't bid into the RJ if you were furloughed.....

You see, mainline pilots want their cake and they want to eat it.... When times are tough and people start losing their jobs, those RJs start to look good....

Where would a furloughed mainline pilot go when he "flowed back" into the RJ? Would he start at the bottom at 22 bucks an hour on reserve in the right seat? I doubt the mainline folks would accept that.....

 

[PCL_128]

The ALPA leadership may say something "different", but they are thinking the same way you are.... and that is why you will never get another regional to join ALPA..... The Skywest pilots and the Colgan pilots were smart..... You can't treat regional pilots differently and then be surprised when they don't want to join the "Mainline Pilots Association"

We will never change each others minds, but don't expect regional pilots to support ALPA while they support this "apartheid" approach....



.....

"Apartheid?" Melodramatic much? There's nothing shocking about the revelation that regionals are different from mainline carriers. You have no reasonable career expectations of ever flying anything bigger than a 76-seat jet at your carrier. So, the idea that you should get the same sort of integration that a guy at another mainline carrier that already has widebody equipment would get is just ridiculous.

Ahhh..... thanks for taking the bait.... Then you aren't really talking about "fences"....If it was a fence, you couldn't bid into the RJ if you were furloughed.....

You see, mainline pilots want their cake and they want to eat it.... When times are tough and people start losing their jobs, those RJs start to look good....


Where would a furloughed mainline pilot go when he "flowed back" into the RJ? Would he start at the bottom at 22 bucks an hour on reserve in the right seat? I doubt the mainline folks would accept that.....

Like I said, there are many different kinds of fences. What I proposed is a fence that would only drop if furloughs took place. Under normal circumstances, the fence would stand and the mainline pilots wouldn't be able to bump you down with a bid into the regional equipment.

 

[JoeMerchant]

"Apartheid?" Melodramatic much? There's nothing shocking about the revelation that regionals are different from mainline carriers. You have no reasonable career expectations of ever flying anything bigger than a 76-seat jet at your carrier. So, the idea that you should get the same sort of integration that a guy at another mainline carrier that already has widebody equipment would get is just ridiculous.

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations"..... Can you define "career expectations"?.... Does ALPA define "career expectations"?....

Did you know that Southern Airways pilots who hired on to fly the Metroliner at Southern, retired as Northwest 747 pilots? How was that possible? The "career expectations" argument is a dead end.....

Like I said, there are many different kinds of fences. What I proposed is a fence that would only drop if furloughs took place. Under normal circumstances, the fence would stand and the mainline pilots wouldn't be able to bump you down with a bid into the regional equipment.

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

As you said, there are many opinions, but I am interested in protections and not opinions...... If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

 

[PCL_128]

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations

You can live in denial if you so choose, but everyone living in the real world knows that you have no career expectations of flying anything bigger than an RJ. When you choose to make a career out of a feeder carrier, you give control of your career expectations to the people that control the code that you fly: the mainline pilots. If you don't like that, you can always try to get a job at a mainline carrier like everyone else.

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

Under the scenario I proposed, the fences would drop with furloughs, so seniority would dictate that they would be displaced to whatever position they bid and could hold. That would likely be the left seat, and it would be at whatever rate their YOS dictated. But like I said, that's just my idea of a good system.

If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

What you don't seem to understand is that you don't have any protection over your job right now at all. You fly for a feeder carrier, so your flying is subject to RFP, as we've seen over and over again. A one-list gives you at least some semblance of job protection. With your seniority, even being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list wouldn't put you at any risk of a furlough or even a displacement to the right seat. The ones that would be at risk would be the more junior pilots, but the risk would be worth it to end the whipsaw. Apparently you're too blind to see that.

 

[737 Pylt]

.... and I have heard many mainline pilots say that we aren't qualified to be Delta pilots..... Doesn't matter what individual pilots say.... What matters is ALPA merger policy and whether or not we are going to try and stop the whipsaw....

And your and your BJ buddy danno have done nothing to contribute to it but to file a frivilous lawsuit, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to hard dues paying members, and in the end, the only winner was your **censored** lawyer!

Doesn't really matter what individual ASA or CMR pilots say..... many were probably fuk!ng with you....fuk!ing with Delta pilots is considered a sport by many at ASA and CMR......

So is messing with ASA pilots that fly the ATR and have an ugly older girlfriend!

737

 

[737 Pylt]

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations"..... Can you define "career expectations"?.... Does ALPA define "career expectations"?....

Since you and the rest of your BJ buddies at the rjdc have dui's or no college, you're stuck in the regionals....Get used to it sport!

Did you know that Southern Airways pilots who hired on to fly the Metroliner at Southern, retired as Northwest 747 pilots? How was that possible? The "career expectations" argument is a dead end.....

Did you know that ATR pilots that sue their union trying to have at a seniority snag from their legacy carrier that they fly feed for are branded as "scabs?"

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

Bumping you out of your seat, just like you tried to do to thousands of Delta pilots, of course!

As you said, there are many opinions, but I am interested in protections and not opinions...... If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

Just sue them JB, that seemed to work real well the first time around!

737

 

[eaglefly]

Eagle pilots furloughed? I think you mean AMR pilots. About 2000+. Doesn't really matter though, because you can't instantly train them to replace a couple thousand EGL pilots on their equipment. There's simply no way to replace Eagle or to eliminate it. The RJ feed will have to continue flying, and you'll need the RJ pilots to continue doing it. I'm not sure exactly what sort of system the APA is proposing to take care of that, but I'm sure they have something in mind.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

AMR has ALREADY announced an intent to divest, so threatening our contract doesn't work.

Most likely, it will be a spinoff to the shareholders. Certain segments of Eagle could be sold off, such as our Saab operations and our Northeast flying. It's possible our 135's could be dumped, but since we have staffing problems along with every other regional, most likley no job losses.

2 years from now, a better picture will develop, but even AMR admits any changes will take many months if not a year or two. The highest paid pilots would be the last to feel any pain, which doesn't work well for AMR.

I think you'll see more fireworks on the AA side over the next 18 months, then Eagle.

In fact, I think we'll be quite uneventful in comparison.