ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

Yuppyguppy

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If APA mangement doesn't want to play strike them and end them... that's enough... time to end this $hit. Our managment at UAL just gave the stockholders 250 million of our money...my strike fund is ready and I'm tired or the greed and the bull$hit from upper management...I"ll be happy to walk your picket line! Shut these m-fers down
 

Dizel8

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Huh?
Way to go APA, this could get really interesting and I hope you all achieve a great contract!
 

luckytohaveajob

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One List per Brand

One seniority list per brand.

It could be done during the upcoming merger season.

Any airlines wholly owned subsidiary should be stapled to the bottom of the mainline list. The regionals would go for it. The majors would go for it.

The majors should also be forced to buy a majority stake in all the branded regionals which should then be stapled under the wholly owned. The major would operate the newly acquired majority stake in the regional. The majors could finance the recently acquired regional through future raises of the mainline pilots and regional pilots creating new ESOP agreements creating a one for all, all for one mentality.

There will be a price to pay for these type of arrangements but there is benefit to gain by all the employees.

Ownership and control over your brands flying is worth it.
 
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Flyby1206

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enuff
I hope this happens, but what will be more important at the negotiating table? Pay raise or all flying on one list? Tough times ahead
 

EatinRamen

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Wow, I'm glad AA's union has the balls to put this on the table. I've always argued that sub-contracting flying to a regional costs more money than keeping it all in-house. They claim that people costs are lower at a regional, but then they end up paying for the regional's overhead expenses and paying their profit margins.
 

luckytohaveajob

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Pay raise or all flying on one list? Tough times ahead
I think you can get both through ESOP ownership in the new company. What you sacrifice in pay could be created in ownership.

Of course management bonus programs would have to be ended. Base pay for management only!!!
 

Dizel8

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Huh?
"Any airlines wholly owned subsidiary should be stapled to the bottom of the mainline list. The regionals would go for it. The majors would go for it."

I should doubt that very much, ask a senior Eagle Captain if he is good with that, being stapled to the bottom of AA. If you fence him off perhaps, because otherwise, you might have a junior AA pilot decide to go fly the RJ, more money, better life,it would be one list after all.

I think "one list , all the flying" is a great idea, but implementing it would be very hard, due to the fact the genie already has left the bottle. Certainly starting as a F/O on the RJ ending as a 787 Captain would be the way to go, but how do we get there?
 

longhaul

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It's been done before

About ten years ago the pilots of KLM's regional airline, KLM Cityhopper, were merged onto the mainline senority list, and all positions were made eligible for bid by both groups. There were significant problems, including a lawsuit by a group of regional pilots who thought that they should have been given date-of-hire, but now that the dust has settled the system works great. New hires for the Cityhopper fleet can now look forward to someday making the big bucks, and those who want to have four stripes quickly can fly the little Fokkers. For the company it meant an end to attrition at the regional, and they gained the ability to put whatever size airplane on whatever route they want to.
 

N2264J

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Re: All Flying will performed by AA pilots

Thank God someone is standing up and fighting for real scope language.
The Comair and ASA MECs fought this battle in 2000 with the PID, filed in accordance with ALPA's Merger Policy after Delta bought both airlines. What we got for our trouble was the lie that circulated claiming we were demanding DOH. To this very day, we are rebuked for our insolence.

Now that the APA is hinting at it and:

Oh, the wisdom!

Thank God!

It's about time!

Praise be to Jesus - somebody gets it!

It's a step in the right direction.

They have balls!

I must be dreaming!

Job security - well done.

These guys act like a union!

At a point in time when we actually could have stopped the bleeding, we were condemned by the mainliners* for our arrogance.

* (and a bunch of regional pilots too)
 
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PCL_128

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The Comair and ASA MECs fought this battle in 2000 with the PID in accordance with ALPA's Merger Policy after Delta bought both airlines.
As I've explained to you about 10,000 times now, the PID didn't meet the requirements contained in ALPA merger policy. As far as the policy was concerned, THERE WAS NO MERGER!!!!!!!
What we got for our trouble was the lie that circulated claiming we were demanding DOH.
That's not a lie, it's a fact. Your buddies weren't going to stand for being stapled to the bottom of the DAL list. Not that it mattered anyway, because the PID wasn't valid.
To this very day, we are rebuked for our insolence.
Yeah, people tend to get pissed off when you try to abrogate their seniority, steal their upgrade slots, and bankrupt their union.

It's pretty pathetic that you're still trying to beat your chest about these old RJDC issues just a few months after the RJDC and the Ford/Cooksey plaintiffs went running home with their tail between their legs and a bunch of left over legal fees.
 

PCL_128

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atpcliff

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Hi!

They could do this very easily pay-wise. All they need is one pay scale for all the pilots, with a min floor for a smaller plane, so every plane, from 19 seats on up, could be AA pilots, on the AA seniority list, all with one pay rate.

How would it work?:
Start with a min floor, say $35K for an FO, and $60K for a Captain-no one would make less than this.

Then, you pay everyone else a payrate of the % of the seat-miles scheduled for the specific fleet that the pilot is on, divided by the number of pilots. The pay would change as the schedule was changed, to reflect the seat-miles flown on the fleet.

So, obviously, the pay would increase as the number of legs went up, or the length of the legs went up, or you flew a bigger plane, as it would have more seats.

With modern computers, it would even be easy to have the pay rate be based on a % of the coach/business class/1st class seats.

The pay rate is "fair", because everyone gets the same pay, with a floor so the smaller plane guys won't get screwed.

***This will help AA TREMENDOSLY in the ever-increasing negative pilot-hiring situation. When AA gets around to recalls, probably late in 2008, EVERYONE will be hiring, including SWA, UPS and FedEx, and AA will be last to the party. Mgmt will be very surprised at their average applicant quality, unless they do something drastic like this proposal would do.***

cliff
GRB
 

samballs

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Hi!

They could do this very easily pay-wise. All they need is one pay scale for all the pilots, with a min floor for a smaller plane, so every plane, from 19 seats on up, could be AA pilots, on the AA seniority list, all with one pay rate.

How would it work?:
Start with a min floor, say $35K for an FO, and $60K for a Captain-no one would make less than this.

Then, you pay everyone else a payrate of the % of the seat-miles scheduled for the specific fleet that the pilot is on, divided by the number of pilots. The pay would change as the schedule was changed, to reflect the seat-miles flown on the fleet.

So, obviously, the pay would increase as the number of legs went up, or the length of the legs went up, or you flew a bigger plane, as it would have more seats.

With modern computers, it would even be easy to have the pay rate be based on a % of the coach/business class/1st class seats.

The pay rate is "fair", because everyone gets the same pay, with a floor so the smaller plane guys won't get screwed.

***This will help AA TREMENDOSLY in the ever-increasing negative pilot-hiring situation. When AA gets around to recalls, probably late in 2008, EVERYONE will be hiring, including SWA, UPS and FedEx, and AA will be last to the party. Mgmt will be very surprised at their average applicant quality, unless they do something drastic like this proposal would do.***

cliff
GRB
Don't be talking smart on FI
 

Frank Lorenzo

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Looks like I'm going to have to offer up my consulting services to AA management.

I will recommend letting the pilots go on strike. Then, it's a quick little trip through Ch. 11 with a little 1113c action thrown in, and were back in the saddle. Scope clause history. (Along with wages, work rules, retirement)

Besides the employees, I will extend my services to management to show them how to most efficiently rape vendors, lessors, creditors, retirees, shareholders......I'm sorry, but I'm just getting aroused thinking about this!

I will use UAL's and NWA's track record as the template. The only thing I want to top them in is the executive bonuses. Not only do I want to top the monetary value, but I want to do it in a way that sets a new low for degrading and demoralizing employees. However, looking at Tilton and Steenland's track record, I may not be able to do that.
 

N2264J

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As I've explained to you about 10,000 times now, the PID didn't meet the requirements contained in ALPA merger policy. As far as the policy was concerned, THERE WAS NO MERGER!!!!!!!
There are 10 (ten) DCI carriers now. Would you care to say a few words on behalf of ALPA's Alter Ego policy? By the way, what is ALPA's Alter Ego policy?

Whatever [the cost] is, it'd be worth it.
Did you run this statement by your buddy-mentor Occam's Razor?
 
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Clacker

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I will recommend letting the pilots go on strike. Then, it's a quick little trip through Ch. 11 with a little 1113c action thrown in, and were back in the saddle. Scope clause history. (Along with wages, work rules, retirement)


Scary how you think, Frank.
But you're right. When push comes to shove and management wants to flatten their unions, this is the ultimate threat isn't it? Employees, creditors, lessors, etc all get thoroughly screwed, and (senior) management get a nice bonus for their efforts.
 

PCL_128

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There are 10 DCI carriers now. Would you care to say a few words on behalf of ALPA's Alter Ego policy?
I don't care to say anything on "behalf" of ALPA, seeing as how I'm no longer an ALPA rep. I speak on behalf of myself. That doesn't change the fact that your beloved PID didn't fall within the confines of the merger policy, and you still fail to understand that all these years later.
 
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PCL_128

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Did you run this by your buddy-mentor Occam's Razor?
Occam and I agree about the cost of solving this problem: both parties (regional and mainline) have to share in the costs. Your buddies like DF didn't want to do that, and that's why you now see 10 DCI carriers. I saw the same problem on the PCL MEC. Anytime someone would even bring up the possibility of a single list, as Captain Miller from Council 20 did a number of years ago, a couple of the senior guys would start screaming and hollering about how they refused to be placed at the bottom of the list below NWA pilots that were hired just a few years earlier. As I've always said, it isn't really the mainline pilots that are the biggest road block to these solutions, the problem is coming from the regional pilots with the massive chips on their shoulder.
 

N2264J

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Occam and I agree about the cost of solving this problem: both parties (regional and mainline) have to share in the costs.
We agree too. We went out of our way to avoid saying how the lists should be put together. That's the job of the respective merger committee negotiations during the 150 day process.

Your buddies like DF didn't want to do that, and that's why you now see 10 DCI carriers.
Wrong. You weren't there so whoever is feeding you that and the part about Comair and ASA MECs demanding DOH is either a liar or passing on a lie.
 
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