ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[PCL_128]

The Comair and ASA MECs fought this battle in 2000 with the PID in accordance with ALPA's Merger Policy after Delta bought both airlines.

As I've explained to you about 10,000 times now, the PID didn't meet the requirements contained in ALPA merger policy. As far as the policy was concerned, THERE WAS NO MERGER!!!!!!!

What we got for our trouble was the lie that circulated claiming we were demanding DOH.

That's not a lie, it's a fact. Your buddies weren't going to stand for being stapled to the bottom of the DAL list. Not that it mattered anyway, because the PID wasn't valid.

To this very day, we are rebuked for our insolence.

Yeah, people tend to get pissed off when you try to abrogate their seniority, steal their upgrade slots, and bankrupt their union.

It's pretty pathetic that you're still trying to beat your chest about these old RJDC issues just a few months after the RJDC and the Ford/Cooksey plaintiffs went running home with their tail between their legs and a bunch of left over legal fees.

 

[PCL_128]

How much is this going to cost the APA pilots?

Whatever it is, it'd be worth it.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

They could do this very easily pay-wise. All they need is one pay scale for all the pilots, with a min floor for a smaller plane, so every plane, from 19 seats on up, could be AA pilots, on the AA seniority list, all with one pay rate.

How would it work?:
Start with a min floor, say $35K for an FO, and $60K for a Captain-no one would make less than this.

Then, you pay everyone else a payrate of the % of the seat-miles scheduled for the specific fleet that the pilot is on, divided by the number of pilots. The pay would change as the schedule was changed, to reflect the seat-miles flown on the fleet.

So, obviously, the pay would increase as the number of legs went up, or the length of the legs went up, or you flew a bigger plane, as it would have more seats.

With modern computers, it would even be easy to have the pay rate be based on a % of the coach/business class/1st class seats.

The pay rate is "fair", because everyone gets the same pay, with a floor so the smaller plane guys won't get screwed.

***This will help AA TREMENDOSLY in the ever-increasing negative pilot-hiring situation. When AA gets around to recalls, probably late in 2008, EVERYONE will be hiring, including SWA, UPS and FedEx, and AA will be last to the party. Mgmt will be very surprised at their average applicant quality, unless they do something drastic like this proposal would do.***

cliff
GRB

 

[samballs]

Hi!

They could do this very easily pay-wise. All they need is one pay scale for all the pilots, with a min floor for a smaller plane, so every plane, from 19 seats on up, could be AA pilots, on the AA seniority list, all with one pay rate.

How would it work?:
Start with a min floor, say $35K for an FO, and $60K for a Captain-no one would make less than this.

Then, you pay everyone else a payrate of the % of the seat-miles scheduled for the specific fleet that the pilot is on, divided by the number of pilots. The pay would change as the schedule was changed, to reflect the seat-miles flown on the fleet.

So, obviously, the pay would increase as the number of legs went up, or the length of the legs went up, or you flew a bigger plane, as it would have more seats.

With modern computers, it would even be easy to have the pay rate be based on a % of the coach/business class/1st class seats.

The pay rate is "fair", because everyone gets the same pay, with a floor so the smaller plane guys won't get screwed.

***This will help AA TREMENDOSLY in the ever-increasing negative pilot-hiring situation. When AA gets around to recalls, probably late in 2008, EVERYONE will be hiring, including SWA, UPS and FedEx, and AA will be last to the party. Mgmt will be very surprised at their average applicant quality, unless they do something drastic like this proposal would do.***

cliff
GRB

Don't be talking smart on FI

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Looks like I'm going to have to offer up my consulting services to AA management.

I will recommend letting the pilots go on strike. Then, it's a quick little trip through Ch. 11 with a little 1113c action thrown in, and were back in the saddle. Scope clause history. (Along with wages, work rules, retirement)

Besides the employees, I will extend my services to management to show them how to most efficiently rape vendors, lessors, creditors, retirees, shareholders......I'm sorry, but I'm just getting aroused thinking about this!

I will use UAL's and NWA's track record as the template. The only thing I want to top them in is the executive bonuses. Not only do I want to top the monetary value, but I want to do it in a way that sets a new low for degrading and demoralizing employees. However, looking at Tilton and Steenland's track record, I may not be able to do that.

 

[N2264J]

As I've explained to you about 10,000 times now, the PID didn't meet the requirements contained in ALPA merger policy. As far as the policy was concerned, THERE WAS NO MERGER!!!!!!!

There are 10 (ten) DCI carriers now. Would you care to say a few words on behalf of ALPA's Alter Ego policy? By the way, what is ALPA's Alter Ego policy?

Whatever [the cost] is, it'd be worth it.

Did you run this statement by your buddy-mentor Occam's Razor?

 

[Clacker]

I will recommend letting the pilots go on strike. Then, it's a quick little trip through Ch. 11 with a little 1113c action thrown in, and were back in the saddle. Scope clause history. (Along with wages, work rules, retirement)

Scary how you think, Frank.
But you're right. When push comes to shove and management wants to flatten their unions, this is the ultimate threat isn't it? Employees, creditors, lessors, etc all get thoroughly screwed, and (senior) management get a nice bonus for their efforts.

 

[PCL_128]

There are 10 DCI carriers now. Would you care to say a few words on behalf of ALPA's Alter Ego policy?

I don't care to say anything on "behalf" of ALPA, seeing as how I'm no longer an ALPA rep. I speak on behalf of myself. That doesn't change the fact that your beloved PID didn't fall within the confines of the merger policy, and you still fail to understand that all these years later.

 

[PCL_128]

Did you run this by your buddy-mentor Occam's Razor?

Occam and I agree about the cost of solving this problem: both parties (regional and mainline) have to share in the costs. Your buddies like DF didn't want to do that, and that's why you now see 10 DCI carriers. I saw the same problem on the PCL MEC. Anytime someone would even bring up the possibility of a single list, as Captain Miller from Council 20 did a number of years ago, a couple of the senior guys would start screaming and hollering about how they refused to be placed at the bottom of the list below NWA pilots that were hired just a few years earlier. As I've always said, it isn't really the mainline pilots that are the biggest road block to these solutions, the problem is coming from the regional pilots with the massive chips on their shoulder.

 

[N2264J]

Occam and I agree about the cost of solving this problem: both parties (regional and mainline) have to share in the costs.

We agree too. We went out of our way to avoid saying how the lists should be put together. That's the job of the respective merger committee negotiations during the 150 day process.

Your buddies like DF didn't want to do that, and that's why you now see 10 DCI carriers.

Wrong. You weren't there so whoever is feeding you that and the part about Comair and ASA MECs demanding DOH is either a liar or passing on a lie.

 

[PCL_128]

Wrong. You weren't there so whoever is feeding you that and the part about Comair and ASA MECs demanding DOH is either a liar or passing on a lie.

People that I trust were there, and all are in agreement about what happened. Were you there?

 

[N2264J]

Were you there?

Yes, I was.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Its like a wedding couple.. both were there yet they have a completely different recolection...

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, I was.

Guess that means somebody is lying, then. And since the guys that disagree with you are the ones that didn't try to sue their union and go for a seniority grab, I think they have a lot more credibility.

 

[CFI2766]

Wow, fantastic, we've rehased a few years of ASA/Comair/Delta MEC relations. We've accomplished a lot. Good job!

Moron(s).

 

[CFI2766]

Are there any logical reasons why one list, perhaps with fences, would be a bad idea for pilots?

How much will it cost? Who cares? Is there anyone who doesn't think that this is the best possible time to ask for and get changes?

 

[PCL_128]

Are there any logical reasons why one list, perhaps with fences, would be a bad idea for pilots?

How much will it cost? Who cares? Is there anyone who doesn't think that this is the best possible time to ask for and get changes?

I think you'll find that a lot of the senior Captains at your airline will raise a big fuss about being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list. As much as some RJDC supporters like to deny it, there are plenty of 20+ year regional guys that think they're owed a widebody left seat if an integration takes place.

 

[N2264J]

I think you'll find that a lot of the senior Captains at your airline will raise a big fuss about being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list....there are plenty of 20+ year regional guys that think they're owed a widebody left seat if an integration takes place.

So after you say it should be done no matter what the cost, you suggest it shouldn't be done because there are 20+ year Captains at Eagle who may feel DOH with fences is appropriate?

You're saying that single list merger negotiations at AA are impossible because some Eagle pilots will think a staple is unsatisfactory?

 

[PCL_128]

So after you say it should be done no matter what the cost, you suggest it shouldn't be done because there are 20+ year Captains at Eagle who may feel DOH with fences is appropriate?

You're saying that single list merger negotiations at AA are impossible because some Eagle pilots will think a staple is unsatisfactory?

I was merely answering the man's question about who would be opposed to such an idea. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done because of that. To the contrary, I think it should be done, and I don't think there would be any problem in getting the majority of the EGL pilots to approve such a measure. We'll just have to listen to a bunch of cranky old EGL geezers whine for the next decade about being stapled to the bottom of the AMR list.

 

[CFI2766]

I think you'll find that a lot of the senior Captains at your airline will raise a big fuss about being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list. As much as some RJDC supporters like to deny it, there are plenty of 20+ year regional guys that think they're owed a widebody left seat if an integration takes place.

I'm at the bottom of a list that would be stapled to the bottom of another list. Thus, it's not too palatable for me in the short run. However, in the long run, this idea, of one list for one pilot group, would be tremendously beneficial to every professional pilot.

If a few 20+ year oldsters get their feathers ruffled, so be it. TFB. (As was pointed out to me very recently with regards to bonus distrubution monies, what's just is in the eye of the majority vote holder.) There's no way that senior folks at AA, or Delta, United, or NWA, for that matter, would allow an old regional guy to skip in line up to a wide-body. Therefore, the oldster's issue is a non-starter and shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

For the sake of the entire profession, I hope that this idea gains traction. Unfortunatetly, it will have to be an all or nothing endeavor. There's no way AA can compete with a single seniority list while all the other majors enjoy lower cost flying through their multiple regional carriers.

 

[PCL_128]

If a few 20+ year oldsters get their feathers ruffled, so be it. TFB.

Amen to that.

 

[CFI2766]

Amen to that.

I, for one, very much like the idea of potentially being able to start right seat in an RJ and have the potential to wind up left seat in a 777 many years down the road. I suspect many, many folks have the same preference.

The way the regionals are set up right now, this isn't necessarily the case.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

And the old guys who are stapled will get to fly (at least) 5 more years which will help them with their retirement situation.

cliff
GRB

 

[PCL_128]

Hi!

And the old guys who are stapled will get to fly (at least) 5 more years which will help them with their retirement situation.

cliff
GRB

Not if some of us have anything to say about it.

 

[CFI2766]

Hi!

And the old guys who are stapled will get to fly (at least) 5 more years which will help them with their retirement situation.

cliff
GRB

Awww he!!, one fight at a time.

(For the record, tho, I think that if they can pass the medical, then they should be allowed to fly. Given the history of airline hiring/firing, there has never been a better time for the overall pilot group than now to make this change. Make this change when all the airlines are laying people off, and the sh!t really would hit the fan.)

 

[Flyby1206]

One list with fences and payrates as atpcliff laid out would be great. Staple AE to the bottom of AA list, those at AE who are afraid of this can chose to bid a form of Eagle Rights which caps them at 70 seat a/c and they wont be able to advance to anything bigger, nor will they be displaced or furloughed unless by another Eagle Rights guy. I would guess 200-400 out of the 3000 AE pilots would chose this.

By having everything from 19seaters to 777s one one list it would allow the bottom of the seniority list (cheapest labor) to be flying the smallest equip. There wouldnt be nearly as many 20yr CAs flying RJs, saving the company money. Recruiting dept could raise the minimums and still have a stack of applicants trying to get their all important seniority number to plan a career at one carrier (AA).

 

[N2264J]

I was merely answering the man's question about who would be opposed to such an idea. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done because of that. To the contrary, I think it should be done...

So if a regional guy proposes consolidation within the brand, it's a seniority grab but when the mainliners do it, they're saving the profession.

Did I get that right?

 

[PCL_128]

So if a regional guy proposes consolidation within the brand, it's a seniority grab but when the mainliners do it, they're saving the profession.

Did I get that right?

Are you really this dense, or do you just pretend to be? Trying to weasel your way into 20 years of mainline seniority is a seniority grab. That's what your RJDC buddies tried to do. A mainline group trying to negotiate for a single list isn't a seniority grab, because they already own the seniority. Really, this isn't that complicated.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Are you really this dense, or do you just pretend to be? Trying to weasel your way into 20 years of mainline seniority is a seniority grab. That's what your RJDC buddies tried to do. A mainline group trying to negotiate for a single list isn't a seniority grab, because they already own the seniority. Really, this isn't that complicated.

How would we have "weaseled" our way into 20 years of mainline seniority? Any merger at ASA/CMR/DAL would have been in accordance with ALPA merger policy...... Are you saying that would have complied with ALPA merger policy?

The "seniority grab" argument was fabricated by the DAL MEC to scare DAL pilots, and it worked like a charm.

It isn't fair for a 20 year RJ pilot to bump a 777 pilot out of his seat....... AND it is EQUALLY unfair for a mainline newhire to bump that same 20 year RJ pilot out of his seat..... which is what a staple does....

You don't seem to concerned about the 20 year RJ pilot.....No windfalls at the expense of others......

 

[PCL_128]

It isn't fair for a 20 year RJ pilot to bump a 777 pilot out of his seat....... AND it is EQUALLY unfair for a mainline newhire to bump that same 20 year RJ pilot out of his seat..... which is what a staple does....

It's unfair for anyone to be bumped out of a seat, including an RJ Captain, but also unfair for a 20-year RJ Captain to be placed on a combined list ahead of junior mainline pilots, and that's exactly what your buddies wanted done. Even with fences that protect current seat/equipment positions, it would not be right for a regional pilot to have seniority rights over the junior mainline pilots in bidding future vacancies (or AEs in DAL lingo).