ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[JoeMerchant]

Define "fair." That's the problem. To me, "fair" is DOH for mergers involving two mainline carriers, and a staple for mergers involving a mainline and a regional carrier. I'd imagine that you have a different idea of "fair," and so would lots of other people. There's a reason that ALPA has the current merger policy. You just can't get enough people to agree on what a "fair" policy would be.

1. So there is still a difference between "regional" and "mainline" carriers within ALPA.... thanks for clarifying that there is still a double standard....

2. How exactly do "fences" work when there are furloughs at the mainline? Do the mainline folks not get to flowback now because of these "fences"?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fabricated...maybe. But I had more than one CMR pilot during that time tell me to my face that they were going to get DOH.

.... and I have heard many mainline pilots say that we aren't qualified to be Delta pilots..... Doesn't matter what individual pilots say.... What matters is ALPA merger policy and whether or not we are going to try and stop the whipsaw....

Doesn't really matter what individual ASA or CMR pilots say..... many were probably fuk!ng with you....fuk!ing with Delta pilots is considered a sport by many at ASA and CMR......

 

[PCL_128]

1. So there is still a difference between "regional" and "mainline" carriers within ALPA.... thanks for clarifying that there is still a double standard....

In my opinion, yes, there's a big difference. The ALPA leadership might say something different. I'm just giving you my opinion. But really, that's the whole point, because as I said, everyone will have a different opinion about how a "fair" integration would have to be set up.

2. How exactly do "fences" work when there are furloughs at the mainline? Do the mainline folks not get to flowback now because of these "fences"?

You could set them up in any number of ways. If it was up to me, then in the event of furloughs, yes, the mainline folks would flow back into the RJ equipment. That certainly wouldn't be the only way to set it up, however.

 

[JoeMerchant]

In my opinion, yes, there's a big difference. The ALPA leadership might say something different. I'm just giving you my opinion. But really, that's the whole point, because as I said, everyone will have a different opinion about how a "fair" integration would have to be set up.

The ALPA leadership may say something "different", but they are thinking the same way you are.... and that is why you will never get another regional to join ALPA..... The Skywest pilots and the Colgan pilots were smart..... You can't treat regional pilots differently and then be surprised when they don't want to join the "Mainline Pilots Association"

We will never change each others minds, but don't expect regional pilots to support ALPA while they support this "apartheid" approach....

You could set them up in any number of ways. If it was up to me, then in the event of furloughs, yes, the mainline folks would flow back into the RJ equipment. That certainly wouldn't be the only way to set it up, however.

..... Ahhh..... thanks for taking the bait.... Then you aren't really talking about "fences"....If it was a fence, you couldn't bid into the RJ if you were furloughed.....

You see, mainline pilots want their cake and they want to eat it.... When times are tough and people start losing their jobs, those RJs start to look good....

Where would a furloughed mainline pilot go when he "flowed back" into the RJ? Would he start at the bottom at 22 bucks an hour on reserve in the right seat? I doubt the mainline folks would accept that.....

 

[PCL_128]

The ALPA leadership may say something "different", but they are thinking the same way you are.... and that is why you will never get another regional to join ALPA..... The Skywest pilots and the Colgan pilots were smart..... You can't treat regional pilots differently and then be surprised when they don't want to join the "Mainline Pilots Association"

We will never change each others minds, but don't expect regional pilots to support ALPA while they support this "apartheid" approach....



.....

"Apartheid?" Melodramatic much? There's nothing shocking about the revelation that regionals are different from mainline carriers. You have no reasonable career expectations of ever flying anything bigger than a 76-seat jet at your carrier. So, the idea that you should get the same sort of integration that a guy at another mainline carrier that already has widebody equipment would get is just ridiculous.

Ahhh..... thanks for taking the bait.... Then you aren't really talking about "fences"....If it was a fence, you couldn't bid into the RJ if you were furloughed.....

You see, mainline pilots want their cake and they want to eat it.... When times are tough and people start losing their jobs, those RJs start to look good....


Where would a furloughed mainline pilot go when he "flowed back" into the RJ? Would he start at the bottom at 22 bucks an hour on reserve in the right seat? I doubt the mainline folks would accept that.....

Like I said, there are many different kinds of fences. What I proposed is a fence that would only drop if furloughs took place. Under normal circumstances, the fence would stand and the mainline pilots wouldn't be able to bump you down with a bid into the regional equipment.

 

[JoeMerchant]

"Apartheid?" Melodramatic much? There's nothing shocking about the revelation that regionals are different from mainline carriers. You have no reasonable career expectations of ever flying anything bigger than a 76-seat jet at your carrier. So, the idea that you should get the same sort of integration that a guy at another mainline carrier that already has widebody equipment would get is just ridiculous.

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations"..... Can you define "career expectations"?.... Does ALPA define "career expectations"?....

Did you know that Southern Airways pilots who hired on to fly the Metroliner at Southern, retired as Northwest 747 pilots? How was that possible? The "career expectations" argument is a dead end.....

Like I said, there are many different kinds of fences. What I proposed is a fence that would only drop if furloughs took place. Under normal circumstances, the fence would stand and the mainline pilots wouldn't be able to bump you down with a bid into the regional equipment.

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

As you said, there are many opinions, but I am interested in protections and not opinions...... If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

 

[PCL_128]

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations

You can live in denial if you so choose, but everyone living in the real world knows that you have no career expectations of flying anything bigger than an RJ. When you choose to make a career out of a feeder carrier, you give control of your career expectations to the people that control the code that you fly: the mainline pilots. If you don't like that, you can always try to get a job at a mainline carrier like everyone else.

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

Under the scenario I proposed, the fences would drop with furloughs, so seniority would dictate that they would be displaced to whatever position they bid and could hold. That would likely be the left seat, and it would be at whatever rate their YOS dictated. But like I said, that's just my idea of a good system.

If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

What you don't seem to understand is that you don't have any protection over your job right now at all. You fly for a feeder carrier, so your flying is subject to RFP, as we've seen over and over again. A one-list gives you at least some semblance of job protection. With your seniority, even being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list wouldn't put you at any risk of a furlough or even a displacement to the right seat. The ones that would be at risk would be the more junior pilots, but the risk would be worth it to end the whipsaw. Apparently you're too blind to see that.

 

[737 Pylt]

.... and I have heard many mainline pilots say that we aren't qualified to be Delta pilots..... Doesn't matter what individual pilots say.... What matters is ALPA merger policy and whether or not we are going to try and stop the whipsaw....

And your and your BJ buddy danno have done nothing to contribute to it but to file a frivilous lawsuit, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to hard dues paying members, and in the end, the only winner was your **censored** lawyer!

Doesn't really matter what individual ASA or CMR pilots say..... many were probably fuk!ng with you....fuk!ing with Delta pilots is considered a sport by many at ASA and CMR......

So is messing with ASA pilots that fly the ATR and have an ugly older girlfriend!

737

 

[737 Pylt]

No.... not melodramatic..... you go on to prove my point..... You have already determined my "career expectations" for me...... Funny, I don't recall giving you the authority to determine my "career expectations"..... Can you define "career expectations"?.... Does ALPA define "career expectations"?....

Since you and the rest of your BJ buddies at the rjdc have dui's or no college, you're stuck in the regionals....Get used to it sport!

Did you know that Southern Airways pilots who hired on to fly the Metroliner at Southern, retired as Northwest 747 pilots? How was that possible? The "career expectations" argument is a dead end.....

Did you know that ATR pilots that sue their union trying to have at a seniority snag from their legacy carrier that they fly feed for are branded as "scabs?"

You never answered where you think they should fit once they "flow back"..... Bottom on reserve in the right seat making $22 bucks an hour......

Bumping you out of your seat, just like you tried to do to thousands of Delta pilots, of course!

As you said, there are many opinions, but I am interested in protections and not opinions...... If I can't get protection for my job, then I'm not interested in the single list......

Just sue them JB, that seemed to work real well the first time around!

737

 

[eaglefly]

Eagle pilots furloughed? I think you mean AMR pilots. About 2000+. Doesn't really matter though, because you can't instantly train them to replace a couple thousand EGL pilots on their equipment. There's simply no way to replace Eagle or to eliminate it. The RJ feed will have to continue flying, and you'll need the RJ pilots to continue doing it. I'm not sure exactly what sort of system the APA is proposing to take care of that, but I'm sure they have something in mind.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

AMR has ALREADY announced an intent to divest, so threatening our contract doesn't work.

Most likely, it will be a spinoff to the shareholders. Certain segments of Eagle could be sold off, such as our Saab operations and our Northeast flying. It's possible our 135's could be dumped, but since we have staffing problems along with every other regional, most likley no job losses.

2 years from now, a better picture will develop, but even AMR admits any changes will take many months if not a year or two. The highest paid pilots would be the last to feel any pain, which doesn't work well for AMR.

I think you'll see more fireworks on the AA side over the next 18 months, then Eagle.

In fact, I think we'll be quite uneventful in comparison.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You can live in denial if you so choose, but everyone living in the real world knows that you have no career expectations of flying anything bigger than an RJ. When you choose to make a career out of a feeder carrier, you give control of your career expectations to the people that control the code that you fly: the mainline pilots. If you don't like that, you can always try to get a job at a mainline carrier like everyone else.

I don't give control of my career expectations to you or anyone else....... If that is the position of the mainline and ALPA, then they can expect me to do anything and everything within my power to stop them..... regardless of the effect it has on them...

By the way, when I got hired at ASA, there wasn't an expectation to fly RJs.... we didn't have them....Expectations change my friend...... that's why they call them "expectations".... and not "guarantees"...... Either way, they shouldn't factor into setting up arbitrary "classes" of members within ALPA.......

Under the scenario I proposed, the fences would drop with furloughs, so seniority would dictate that they would be displaced to whatever position they bid and could hold. That would likely be the left seat, and it would be at whatever rate their YOS dictated. But like I said, that's just my idea of a good system.

So the mainline pilot who has been at mainline for 6 mos. gets seniority over the folks at the regional? That is exactly the attitude that won't fly..... If I don't get anything at the mainline, then the mainline pilot doesn't get anything other than the bottom of the list..... No double standards...

What you don't seem to understand is that you don't have any protection over your job right now at all. You fly for a feeder carrier, so your flying is subject to RFP, as we've seen over and over again. A one-list gives you at least some semblance of job protection. With your seniority, even being stapled to the bottom of the mainline list wouldn't put you at any risk of a furlough or even a displacement to the right seat. The ones that would be at risk would be the more junior pilots, but the risk would be worth it to end the whipsaw. Apparently you're too blind to see that.

What you don't understand is that some of us like the schedules and the flexibility our seniority gives us.... We don't want to lose that by getting bumped down..... I enjoy 18 days off and turning 1 week of vacation into 3 weeks..... If I wanted to fly big airplanes, I would leave... I just want to keep my seniority.... You don't seem to undertand that.....

If giving up seniority in the bad times is a requirement for a single list, then forget it..... I'd rather just stay separate......

 

[PCL_128]

then they can expect me to do anything and everything within my power to stop them

You already tried that, remember? Big lawsuit and four-letter organization? Ringing any bells? Failed miserably, and provided me with years of entertainment with a great laugh at the end.

 

[737 Pylt]

If I wanted to fly big airplanes, I would leave... I just want to keep my seniority.... You don't seem to undertand that.....

I was actually agreeing with some of what you wrote here until this statment, which is what makes you the miserable POS that you are. Wasn't the basis of the rjdc lawsuit that our "scope" was limiting the size of aircraft you could fly? I thought you guys wanted to fly bigger airplanes? You can't have it both ways JB......Now write out that check to Haber, his BMW payment is due in Jan!

If giving up seniority in the bad times is a requirement for a single list, then forget it..... I'd rather just stay separate......

How's that seniority working out for ya on those S3C's to/from Florida?

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

You already tried that, remember? Big lawsuit and four-letter organization? Ringing any bells? Failed miserably, and provided me with years of entertainment with a great laugh at the end.

Didn't fail..... it prevented any Delta pilots from coming to ASA or CMR with super-seniority ala "Jets for Jobs"..... Several of our MEC members have said that RJDC helped as the DAL MEC really wanted a "jets4jobs" deal here.....

It cost ALPA alot of money..... and we have some small protections now from mainline scope..... In the end it was worth the money....

If you "vision" of a single list is the way to go, then forget it..... let's just stay separate.....

 

[PCL_128]

Didn't fail..... it prevented any Delta pilots from coming to ASA or CMR with super-seniority ala "Jets for Jobs"..... Several of our MEC members have said that RJDC helped as the DAL MEC really wanted a "jets4jobs" deal here.....

Yeah, I'm sure that's the story they tell to try to justify in their own minds all the money they watched get flushed down the toilet as Haber bought himself another BMW with their donations.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I was actually agreeing with some of what you wrote here until this statment, which is what makes you the miserable POS that you are. Wasn't the basis of the rjdc lawsuit that our "scope" was limiting the size of aircraft you could fly? I thought you guys wanted to fly bigger airplanes? You can't have it both ways JB......Now write out that check to Haber, his BMW payment is due in Jan!

Don't want it both ways..... I am happy with the current size limits on DCI flying..... but don't want any restrictions on ASA/Skywest for any flying they do outside of the Delta code.....

How's that seniority working out for ya on those S3C's to/from Florida?

737

Works great since most of the flights to MLB are RJs.... I have seniority over the many Delta pilots on the RJs.... You do realize that we have seniority over Delta on our own airplanes.... Most commuting cities are RJs..... The pass priority is actually going to hurt you guys more than us..... Oh well.....

So to answer your question, most of the time I am S3 and it is YOU that would be S3C.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, I'm sure that's the story they tell to try to justify in their own minds all the money they watched get flushed down the toilet as Haber bought himself another BMW with their donations.

Sorry.... I'm getting my money back and we did prevent any super-seniority mainline program.... Works for me.......

 

[~~~^~~~]

What garbage. This was a pretty good thread.

Joe's positions do not reflect what the RJDC was trying to accomplish.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually, I thought the car went to a girlfriend, now ex wife, or something along those lines.

So Haber got screwed in divorce court by another scumbag attorney? Excellent! This RJDC story just keeps getting better. Thanks for the years of entertainment, John!

 

[737 Pylt]

Didn't fail..... it prevented any Delta pilots from coming to ASA or CMR with super-seniority ala "Jets for Jobs"..... Several of our MEC members have said that RJDC helped as the DAL MEC really wanted a "jets4jobs" deal here.....

Really? Or are you just talking out of your arse again? More of the rjdc spin? Where's your girl N2264j? Under Dan's desk again. I'm sure she could support more of your BS lies!

It cost ALPA alot of money.....

That's great you idiot! Do you realize ALPA is YOUR union too?

and we have some small protections now from mainline scope..... In the end it was worth the money....

Protections? :laugh: HA! Sure, ASA/CMR, come have a seat at the table, but keep your mouth shut, and don't say a word. Also, don't sit on the furniture.

If you "vision" of a single list is the way to go, then forget it..... let's just stay separate.....

It was never gonna happen anyway sport!

737