Go Around, BE PROFESSIONAL

[Hollywood82]

Listen, if your FO can't handle it, then you fly the legs into the busy airports, and let him fly to Valdosta. Really, that go around your FO CAUSED cost us $6000 (more than both of you make in a month). Take charge MAN! Don't be a wuss.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Ouch! We're not paid that badly. haha

Seriously though, this wasn't intentional and I do feel bad, but I make no apologies for following the SOPs. The FO was just doing what I was telling him.

You guys have a fine airline and I wish this didn't happen, but it did, and that crew was extremely unprofessional about the whole thing. That's all.

It was late at night and they were probably tired.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Read back fool! ... you sure can't read worth a damn!

You're full of it!

You're full of it!

Go fly your Mooney

.... but my crew doesn't rush.

It really speaks volumes when my early 20s FO says "that's unprofessional" about a 30 - 60 something Legacy pilot.

Let's try to be more respectful to each other, please.

Yeah, what YOU said.

Next year when the ATA tries again to ban your operation from the nation's busiest airports I will again write my Representatives, but you have brought additional considerations that have me thinking that perhaps I've been on the wrong side of this debate in the past.

 

[Hollywood82]

Again, you 91, or 135? I'm all for playing this game.

FAR135 our SOPs say Vref -0/+20 from OM inbound on an ILS. On a visual we have to be -0/+20 in the last 500ft. We were +15 doing an ILS. Cut me some slack, we did all we could legally.

 

[Hollywood82]

Yeah, what YOU said.

Next year when the ATA tries again to ban your operation from the nation's busiest airports I will again write my Representatives, but you have brought additional considerations that have me thinking that perhaps I've been on the wrong side of this debate in the past.

I would rather not fly into the larger airports 135 or 91. There's crappy service, expensive fuel, and guys like you there. It would be alot easier to go to a satellite field, and get good service with cheap fuel.

I thought that was the point of satellite fields?

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK Fair Enough, but IMHO you could explain to your FO why he should cut Delta some slack. No one expects the performance a Citation can provide on final (great wing for shorter runways) and as General pointed out, a missed approach is expensive. Delta is losing money, measuring fuel with a thimble, and now these guys & the controller(s) get to write up reports at the end of their work day.

 

[GuppyWN]

FAR135 our SOPs say Vref -0/+20 from OM inbound on an ILS. On a visual we have to be -0/+20 in the last 500ft. We were +15 doing an ILS. Cut me some slack, we did all we could legally.

Don't have a dog in this fight but you were ref+15 on final and STILL only 117kias?

Gup

 

[FLYLOW22]

Vixin is right. You can't exit the bottom of Class B over 200 KIAS.

Technically, you are right.

Practically, good luck positively locating yourself on the Class B chart for ATL. It's very... unique.

Once ATC vectors you into Class B anyway, they must let you know if they vector you out of Class B.

Pilot/Controller Glossary 101.

Wow. This thread is so dorky.

Where is a great place to get beer in ATL?

 

[Hollywood82]

Don't have a dog in this fight but you were ref+15 on final and STILL only 117kias?

Gup

Yes Sir, Vref was 102KIAS, 1 pax, 2000lbs of fuel.

 

[General Lee]

Ouch! We're not paid that badly. haha

Seriously though, this wasn't intentional and I do feel bad, but I make no apologies for following the SOPs. The FO was just doing what I was telling him.

You guys have a fine airline and I wish this didn't happen, but it did, and that crew was extremely unprofessional about the whole thing. That's all.

It was late at night and they were probably tired.

There you go, you are being reasonable. It does cost us (or anyone these days) a lot of money to go around, so keeping the assigned speeds at Major airports is a must. But, I can understand that it happens sometimes. Just try to keep it to a minimum, and if you have to make sure you take the legs into busy airports if you feel you have a weak FO.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLYLOW22]

Listen, if your FO can't handle it, then you fly the legs into the busy airports, and let him fly to Valdosta. Really, that go around your FO CAUSED cost us $6000 (more than both of you make in a month). Take charge MAN! Don't be a wuss.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The General wants to compare W2s again... sheesh... I thought it would take until April to have this discussion again.

 

[400ADude]

Hollywood,

You did just fine. Don't take the Deltards or Critters like Lee and Webb seriously. They are rude and their White Trash DNA comes out in their responses. They're trash, now move along.

 

[d.fitz]

then 250 till underlying class B then 200 to the OM. It was max legal speed all the way.

At what point were you "underlying" class B???

 

[Hollywood82]

There you go, you are being reasonable. It does cost us (or anyone these days) a lot of money to go around, so keeping the assigned speeds at Major airports is a must. But, I can understand that it happens sometimes. Just try to keep it to a minimum, and if you have to make sure you take the legs into busy airports if you feel you have a weak FO.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I've always let ATC know I'll be slow when the big guys are behind me. I've even offered to ATC to slow more to let them by me in the past, and have gotten thank yous.

What grinds my gears about this situation, is that, 1. it wasn't busy, 2. I did advise ATC of our app speed long before being cleared for the app., and 3. there was no need for what was said on the radio.

Just for the record GLee, my FO does a great job, he was doing what I told him to do.

I just wanted people to see this from my point of view, that's all.

 

[get2flyin]

I just wanted people to see this from my point of view, that's all.

(LOL) You see, that was your 1st mistake. You came to the "Majors" section hoping ANYBODY would see things your way about anything? Nothing personal, but I'd say the majority of these people aren't looking for a fresh perspective. You could have landed a Rutan space plane that was on fire with bodies falling out and somebody on here is going to tell you how you cost their company $6,000 for a go around. You might as well just let it go.

 

[lowtimedriver]

Guess those Delta guys forgot how to do S Turns. ATC is responsible for separation in Bravo.

 

[General Lee]

Guess those Delta guys forgot how to do S Turns. ATC is responsible for separation in Bravo.

You can't really do it if you are landing 27L and there are planes on each side of you on 28 and 26R. I guess you would still do it, and then do a "Breakout" maneuver on the PRM... You did know we have simultaneous parallel PRM approaches to 3 runways sometimes, right?

If your final approach speed is 117Kts, and you do that 5 miles out, that is BAD. A heavy jet may be 40 kts faster than that, and there is no way to slow even more. Does ATC need to sequence props or slower planes away from heavies? You just can't do that at ATL, it's called VOLUME. If you can't handle it, then you need to leave the business. ATC is responsible, you are right, but if you slow early between approach freq and tower freq, the guy behind you may not know until he is 2 miles behind you and he checks on with Tower. That is YOUR fault for slowing too early. Keep your speed up until you NEED to slow down for operational safety. Slowing at Depot on the ILS 27L in a prop is wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[starchkr]

Alright, i'll chime in here...

First let me say i have been on both sides of this issue, plus the middle. I have had an airliner go around because of me...well, because of the bird at least(learjet), lost an engine on t/o roll and of course had to abort, airliner went around. Went around in an airliner because another bird was on the runway ahead and failed to clear as instructed by tower. Now for the third...went around(learjet again) for an airliner going the speed of molases on final and the runway.

It's not always in your cards as to how the go-arounds occur, however you can always do more to prevent them from happening. I can remember doing a "go-around" in the lear on short final for a citation...however, instead of going back out for a full approach, we just did a quick 360 and touched down uneventful. I have flown an airliner faster than our book says to keep the flow of traffic going, i have also slowed waaaaaaay down far out from the marker to prevent from having to do a go-around...all we had to do was take a look at our TCAS and see that the bird in front dropped anchor and so we did the same. The company ops tell you to fly a certain speed or profile, however if in the event it is necessary to do something different, you do it, it's as simple as that. If you need to keep it faster you do, if you need to slow down you do. If you don't play by the "friendly" rules, you will soon find yourself at the bottom of everyones list.

I always lived by the rules of get down and get off fast when i flew the lear, however the lear would do that without a problem, i have never flown a slowtation(your words), but i bet it could get off faster than the lear...especially much easier to make the first turnoff versus letting it roll...i mean heck, those brakes and reversers are there for a reason.

I'm not going to call you a dork or make fun of you or anything like that, but i would suggest if you fly into high traffic airports you maybe think about fitting in better with the flow of traffic, it just makes us all happier and then you don't have to come post threads like this on FI.

 

[General Lee]

I've always let ATC know I'll be slow when the big guys are behind me. I've even offered to ATC to slow more to let them by me in the past, and have gotten thank yous.

What grinds my gears about this situation, is that, 1. it wasn't busy, 2. I did advise ATC of our app speed long before being cleared for the app., and 3. there was no need for what was said on the radio.

Just for the record GLee, my FO does a great job, he was doing what I told him to do.

I just wanted people to see this from my point of view, that's all.

When did you slow to your final 117Kt speed? It may have been too early, and since you are saying he was following your lead, maybe it is you who need to manage your speed better. Not trying to bust your ballz, but hey, welcome to ATL, the busiest airport in the world.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLYLOW22]

When did you slow to your final 117Kt speed? It may have been too early, and since you are saying he was following your lead, maybe it is you who need to manage your speed better. Not trying to bust your ballz, but hey, welcome to ATL, the busiest airport in the world.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Hell, TEB gets "busier" than ATL at times... airspace vs. workload.

When the last time that you guys circled to any runway in ATL?

Go do the VOR-A to TEB circle to 19 in TEB while being above the helicopters on the highway below and below the CAL jets landing EWR above AND missing the rest of TEB traffic... then let's talk busy.

And that's a Monday.

Watch for those TV antennas too BTW.

 

[CA1900]

Watch for those TV antennas too BTW.

I hope we'll get approval for this one into PDK at some point:

RNP 02R KPDK

 

[GogglesPisano]

It's company policy to be Vapp from the OM inbound. What would you do? We have just as much of a right to be there as you. It sucks, but it's life!

OMG. I mean ................ well, oh my Gawd!!! :uzi:

 

[Fubijaakr]

It's company policy to be Vapp from the OM inbound. What would you do? We have just as much of a right to be there as you. It sucks, but it's life!

Maybe, but you have to appreciate the conditions that exist at individual airports. Here's a conversation I heard once:

"Delta XXX maintain 180 to the marker."

"Delta XXX say indicated airspeed."

"150"

"Delta XXX maintain 180 to the marker"

"Our policy is to be fully configured and on speed at the marker."

"Delta XXX, approach clearance cancelled, fly heading 160, climb to and maintain 5000."

"Why?"

"I've got to build you a bigger hole if you're going to fly that slow."

 

[FLYLOW22]

I hope we'll get approval for this one into PDK at some point:

RNP 02R KPDK

Dude! Won't happen for the Ultra but BRING IT!!

Looks awesome and if it helps get in to PDK, it's good juju.

Let's not even talk about getting into 36U... gliders, short, narrow, uncontrolled, 14K terrain within 5 miles, 5,600 MSL pavement...

I'd take a nice 150kt. ILS approach into ATL any day.

 

[GogglesPisano]

.....I just assumed the DAL crew was making an unprofessional comment about a regional crew......

You don't suffer from "victimhood," though.

 

[FLYLOW22]

All this dorky work talk has me stressed out. I'm ordering room service.


Oh Gar-kon!!

 

[climb2slow]

Ouch! We're not paid that badly. haha

Seriously though, this wasn't intentional and I do feel bad, but I make no apologies for following the SOPs. The FO was just doing what I was telling him.

You guys have a fine airline and I wish this didn't happen, but it did, and that crew was extremely unprofessional about the whole thing. That's all.

It was late at night and they were probably tired.

Basically, its operations like this that strengthen the case to make certain airports 'airline only'. There are at least 3 other airports in the greater Atlanta area that can more than serve the needs of your Citation. Do us all a favor and fly your SOP's over there.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I hope we'll get approval for this one into PDK at some point:

RNP 02R KPDK

I thought POCIV was already a fix elsewhere. .. They could name it BOORTZ

 

[Hollywood82]

Basically, its operations like this that strengthen the case to make certain airports 'airline only'. There are at least 3 other airports in the greater Atlanta area that can more than serve the needs of your Citation. Do us all a favor and fly your SOP's over there.

For the 10th time this didn't happen in ATL.

And I would much rather go to a satellite field, since you airline guys think you "own" any class B airport, thought I covered all this.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

I thought POCIV was already a fix elsewhere. .. They could name it BOORTZ

I don't think that he needs any more boost to his already HUGE ego. He lost me the day he said ALL United pilots make over $400,000 a year.

 

[climb2slow]

For the 10th time this didn't happen in ATL.

And I would much rather go to a satellite field, since you airline guys think you "own" any class B airport, thought I covered all this.

alright...I see a lot of 'it wasn't ATL' well, where was it. Or was it a equally large airport that would prove my point? Perhaps if it was a smaller airport, you could find a little fault with the controller for his lack of vigilance?