Falcon 50ex

[LegacyDriver]

We are talking total package here: systems, reliability, ease of mx, automation, redundancy, comfort...

Primus 1000 isn't the most advanced avionics system in the world, but it is a *true* glass cockpit unlike the 50EX Frankenstein panel.

The EASy Falcons have Epic architecture and the Legacy doesn't. I don't know how much difference it would make for me doing my job. (I had integrated EFB in the Legacy that did everything I would want from an EASy given what I know about it.) However, given a choice between Epic and systems redundancy I will take the latter.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The EASy Falcons have Epic architecture and the Legacy doesn't. I don't know how much difference it would make for me doing my job. (I had integrated EFB in the Legacy that did everything I would want from an EASy given what I know about it.) However, given a choice between Epic and systems redundancy I will take the latter.

all ya can say is...WOW....

Yup, everyone here sure does "twist up" and misunderstand your posts!

Nah....keep that EASy....I have an EFB!

:erm:

The hits just keep coming LD!

 

[hgi2006]

They have worked out all the bugs---like ten years ago for the RJ. Legacy Bugs were minor at worst and were fixed five years ago.

My BS detector gets pegged on HIGH when someone tells me anyone has "worked out ALL the bugs." Not Dassault, not Gulfstream, not EMB can work out ALL the bugs of an airframe. To say that tells me we're very likely getting a bias viewpoint on the Legacy.

I never said it was "brand new.". I said it was more modern and ergonomic than anything I've seen from Dassault. The plane is pretty close to flawless in part because it is not "brand new.". It has 12 million fleet hours under its airframe design. It is rugged as all getout and a joy to fly.

I've done a demo in the Legacy and as you can see, I've flown the Falcons. To say the Legacy is more modern and ergonomic as compared to the Dassault products would be false.

First off, the Primus 1000 came out to the market in 1992. The Proline 4, which the 50EX is equipped with, came out to the market in 1995. The right there throws out the "modern" claim.

As far as ergonomics are concerned, I fail to see it. And it all starts with that ridiculous yoke.

Oh, and the Legacy is not anything close to flawless. Not only does it have older avionics, it flies slow, uses several hundred feet more runway to takeoff, and is limited to FL410. There's nothing modern about any of the above stated facts. A Hawker (built in the 1960's) has equivalent altitude and speed capabilities. This is not to say the 50EX is modern either, but it's certainly more so than the Legacy.

 

[LegacyDriver]

My BS detector gets pegged on HIGH when someone tells me anyone has "worked out ALL the bugs."

Are there any glaring bugs in the Legacy that I'm unaware of????

Embraer has more hours on its fleet than Gulfstream or Dassault. If your pals at G and D havent worked out all their problems it is in part because their stuff is based on ancient history and in part because they don't have the fleet hours ans cycles the EMB does. This is a huge advantage. When you have 1300 planes flying 10 hours a day all over the world it really irons out the kinks.

Youre right though. I guess they haven't worked out *every* bug as the dispatch reliability for Embraer is 99.967 percent and not 100 percent. Still, beats the tar out of everyone else out there by a good margin.

I've done a demo in the Legacy and as you can see, I've flown the Falcons. To say the Legacy is more modern and ergonomic as compared to the Dassault products would be false.

You did a demo. Wow. That makes you the Legacy expert doesn't it? NOT.

the 50 for example is cramped compared to the EMB. The cockpit is tiny and uncomfortable by comparison to the huge Legacy cockpit. Ditto the cabin. The overhead panel and lighting system are light years ahead of the 50.

First off, the Primus 1000 came out to the market in 1992. The Proline 4, which the 50EX is equipped with, came out to the market in 1995. The right there throws out the "modern" claim.

Is there something the 4 does better than the Primus/FMZ? I have yet to find it. (I will admit that coupled VNAV is a nice thing to have but not a real necessity. I give the Falcon a point for that.)

As far as ergonomics are concerned, I fail to see it. And it all starts with that ridiculous yoke.

You fail to see it because you never *flew* the airplane. It is the easiest jet in the world.


The yoke rocks. Once you use it you wont like anything else.

Oh, and the Legacy is not anything close to flawless. Not only does it have older avionics, it flies slow, uses several hundred feet more runway to takeoff, and is limited to FL410. There's nothing modern about any of the above stated facts. A Hawker (built in the 1960's) has equivalent altitude and speed capabilities. This is not to say the 50EX is modern either, but it's certainly more so than the Legacy.

At MTOW roughly 380' more runway. That's negligible. With 8 pax runway lengths are nearly identical.


It flies a .80M which is not slow unless you are comparing it to a Citation X.

FL410 is an arbitrary limit to keep inspection intervals long/wide. The plane has plenty of wing and engine to go higher. (On a hot heavy departure to altitude the Legacy can go to 410 and accelerate hours before the 50EX can.)

The systems in the EMB are decades more advanced than Dassault's....

 

[hgi2006]

You did a demo. Wow. That makes you the Legacy expert doesn't it? NOT.

I never said that it did.

Is there something the 4 does better than the Primus/FMZ? I have yet to find it. (I will admit that coupled VNAV is a nice thing to have but not a real necessity. I give the Falcon a point for that.)

Well, you said the Legacy was modern. So, I pointed out that actually the 50EX has a more modern avionics package. VNAV is a safety benefit, as well as the standard for corporate aircraft. Hell, even the Citation Mustangs have VNAV!

The yoke rocks. Once you use it you wont like anything else.

The yoke is ridiculous... I have a bit of time in a Hawker, and never grew used to the yoke.

At MTOW roughly 380' more runway. That's negligible. With 8 pax runway lengths are nearly identical.

It's only negligible if you have 380' of extra runway hanging around. I'd rather have a BFL 380' shorter than another aircraft, as would most of us here.

It flies a .80M which is not slow unless you are comparing it to a Citation X.

Or a 50EX, or a Falcon 2000, or a G-IV, or a Lear. Ah.. you get the idea.

The Legacy has a Mmo of Mach .80. Thus, you're not flying around at Mach .80. It's evident to me why the salesman at EMB like you (you exaggerate), yet some others in the EMB community think otherwise of you.

In closing, the Legacy is a great corporate shuttle, I'll give it that. But it's a regional airliner, not a corporate aircraft. EMB missed the boat on many things in developing the Legacy, if they planned on making it a true corporate contender.

 

[54fighting]

In closing, the Legacy is a great corporate shuttle, I'll give it that. But it's a regional airliner, not a corporate aircraft. EMB missed the boat on many things in developing the Legacy, if they planned on making it a true corporate contender.

Couldn't have said it better!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Uh I said *coupled* VNAV. The EMB *has* VNAV. It is also steep approach certified which Dassaults and Gulfstreams are not as I recall.


I generally flew the Legacy at M 0.795 and I fly the 50 at M 0.800 so frankly there's no difference to me. Also, you don't fly a Gulfstream, Falcon, etc. etc. At MMO any way unless you are a fuel wasting idiot. YMMV.

No matter how fast a 50EX flies the Legacy outranges it at max payload, so spare me how great Falcons are.

What else?

Oh yes... MTOW BFL is only 380' different. MTOW in EMB assumes 13 pax and 8 for a Falcon. Put 8 in both and the BFL is almost identical. Considering the EMB is 10,000 lbs heavier than the 50 I say that makes it a pretty good performer.


And if I have to do a highspeed RTO I will take the EMB. I don't have to monkey with a tiller or anything like that. She will track the centerline without the slightest waiver in direction and stop very fast. My TRs will actually do something even if I only have one, too, should I use them, as opposed the glorified noisemaker in the 50...

Legacy is equally adept at corporate shuttle or executive missions. It does the same things everyone else does and does it better in many ways.

EMB has sold 150 of them in 6 1/2 years. That's a pace that outstrips what the Falcon 50 did considerably. Embraer *hardly* missed the boat. Some things could be improved, but it is an outstanding *corporate* (executive) jet. Sales figures, performance, and market share prove it.

 

[CRJCA]

LegacyDriver:

Go around man! Abort! Abort! Abort!

 

[LegacyDriver]

LegacyDriver:

Go around man! Abort! Abort! Abort!

No doubt. Hopefully the original poster got his money's worth!

*poof*

 

[hgi2006]

I generally flew the Legacy at M 0.795 and I fly the 50 at M 0.800 so frankly there's no difference to me. Also, you don't fly a Gulfstream, Falcon, etc. etc. At MMO any way unless you are a fuel wasting idiot. YMMV.

Of course you don't operate a Gulfstream at Mmo. Mmo in the G550 is Mach .885. It's routinely flown at Mach .85 though.

EMB has sold 150 of them in 6 1/2 years. That's a pace that outstrips what the Falcon 50 did considerably. Embraer *hardly* missed the boat. Some things could be improved, but it is an outstanding *corporate* (executive) jet. Sales figures, performance, and market share prove it.

Yeah, that's why you see Legacy's all over TEB. Because it's such a popular corporate jet.

 

[LJ45]

getting the popcorn ready, it has been a while since we got LD all wound up...LOL

 

[con-pilot]

It is also steep approach certified which Dassaults and Gulfstream are not as I recall.

I cannot speak for Gulfstream, however, the Falcon 50 and 900 are 100% approved for steep approaches, when applicable. Both are approved for approaches to London City Airport, but not by the FAA because the FAA, for some reason, refuses to approve steep approaches for US corporate aircraft for London City, the JAA does and have.

Are any Legacys approved for operations for London City?

 

[G100driver]

Falcon 900 is approved for steep approaches.

The only reason I can see is for approval to operate out of London City. But then again you have to be operating under JAR approved AFM.

Soo, the WSCofD cannot do steep approaches into London City if the crew and the aircraft are operating with a US N-number and a FAA certifed crew.

 

[Floyd94]

The yoke is ridiculous... I have a bit of time in a Hawker, and never grew used to the yoke.

Agreed, try landing with that yoke in a cross wind. Very uncomfortable and not "ergonomic" at all.

 

[Floyd94]

And if I have to do a highspeed RTO I will take the EMB. I don't have to monkey with a tiller or anything like that. She will track the centerline without the slightest waiver in direction and stop very fast. My TRs will actually do something even if I only have one, too, should I use them, as opposed the glorified noisemaker in the 50...

.

Not me, the brakes on the EMB's suck compared to the DA products. If you did an RTO in the EMB, you'd be taxing around with your TR's deployed trying to "cool your brakes" so you could eventually set your parking brake again. The DA ships never have brake overheating problems like the EMB products.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Not me, the brakes on the EMB's suck compared to the DA products. If you did an RTO in the EMB, you'd be taxing around with your TR's deployed trying to "cool your brakes" so you could eventually set your parking brake again. The DA ships never have brake overheating problems like the EMB products.

I was gonna' keep my trap shut but this is just a flat out *lie*. When I was an F/O one of my Captains (new transition from the 340)tried to trim the airplane airborne like he did in the SAAB and caused a T/O Config warning at V1. She stopped without any problems at *all* as if we had grabbed an arresting hook. Before the buckets even popped we were stopped. The brakes got into the amber and nowhere near overheat.

We pulled to the penalty box and *immediately* set the parking brake while consulting company. Brakes *never* approached overheat. You, sir, are a GD liar. Youve never RTOed in an EMB.


You are full of s---.

Falcons don't stop *anywhere* near as well as EMBs do. Steel brakes vs Carbon with brake by wire? Gimme EMB brakes (the latter) any day, jam them to floor as hard as you can and watch the airplane stop on a *dime*. The Falcon brakes chatter and do all sorts of goofy stuff if you try to stomp on them at all. Anti-skid in Falcon is crap and if you have a problem you have to flip a lever. EMB? Automatic. Smooth. Just press.



I swear I've never met a bigger bunch of....

Bah.

 

[CRJCA]

Ok first of all, the EMB Legacy is approved for steep approach into London City. Second, North carolina State sucks, at all sports.

 

[CRJCA]

Oh yeah, and because I know what you clowns think before you think it. You dont need an EMB type certificate to know that. Do some research. Wait, oh yeah LD, myself and rumrunr78 are the same person.

 

[masedogg19]

Wait, oh yeah LD, myself and rumrunr78 are the same person.

Whether or not that is the case, it's getting old coming here for info and instead watching the "three" of you acting like a bunch of 'mos, massaging each other's "egos" the entire thread

 

[hgi2006]

The Falcon brakes chatter and do all sorts of goofy stuff if you try to stomp on them at all. Anti-skid in Falcon is crap and if you have a problem you have to flip a lever. EMB? Automatic. Smooth. Just press.

Two words - operator error.

The Falcon brakes work well, IF you use them properly. When I flew the Legacy on a demo, yeah the brakes were fine, but they DO get hot, even on landing. To deny that would be a lie.

LD - Like I said earlier in the thread, the Legacy is an ok corporate shuttle. As a corporate aircraft to fly executives around, it's not very good. It's slow, noisy, and quite honestly, over-priced for what it does. Compare it to a G-IV on the pre-owned market. Same price, and the G-IV does MUCH more.