Falcon 50ex

[LegacyDriver]

It was both Director of Ops and Asst Chief (?), but as you know they share the same name....

and yes, very nice guys, very professional.

They must feel terrible that they make you to fly such an "Overrated Piece of Sh*t" , as you call it above...

hy·per·bo·le
[hahy-pur-buh-lee]


–noun Rhetoric.
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

hy·per·bo·le

n. A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.



Falcon is overrated, but POS was over-the-top hyperbole.

Our DO is the DO. All the Chiefs are Chiefs. Nobody goes by both. They don't have the same first name as the DO either.

We have a pretty good bunch of guys. They know I like the Legacy better and you know what they say? Not a thing. They rib me good-naturedly by sticking NO LEGACY signs on my office and stuff like that. I'm allowed to express my individuality and I honestly don't think anyone is truly harmed by it. Then again, I don't talk about the airplane unless asked.

Until this thread came up I stayed out of the line of fire because it always ends up the same way: assaults on my character, skills, and intelligence. Not sure why that is always necessary just because I don't like a particular hunk of metal as much as you do. Whatever...

The only people who seem to care are guys like you without anything else to do. Then again, nobody I know who has met you in person takes you seriously. Sorry to break the news.

The Falcon is fine. It does the job. It pays my bills. But if I were king of the universe I'd probably pick another airplane. More importantly, if I were Falcon I'd tweak the airplane a bit and make it more like the EMB in the areas that the EMB does better. Then you'd have a really really awesome airplane.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

hy·per·bo·le
[hahy-pur-buh-lee]


–noun Rhetoric.
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

Falcon is overrated, but POS was over-the-top hyperbole.

Our DO is the DO. All the Chiefs are Chiefs. Nobody goes by both.

We have a pretty good bunch of guys. They know I like the Legacy better and you know what they say? Not a thing. They rib me good-naturedly by sticking NO LEGACY signs on my office and stuff like that. I'm allowed to express my individuality and I honestly don't think anyone is truly harmed by it.

The only people who seem to care are guys like you without anything else to do. Then again, nobody I know who has met you in person takes you seriously. Sorry to break the news.

The Falcon is fine. It does the job. It pays my bills. But if I were king of the universe I'd probably pick another airplane. More importantly, if I were Falcon I'd tweak the airplane a bit and make it more like the EMB in the areas that the EMB does better. Then you'd have a really really awesome airplane.

Oh I see....now the Falcon is fine....

my....we have quickly changed our tune!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Oh I see....now the Falcon is fine....

my....we have quickly changed our tune!

I have always said it was okay. But it is inferior to the Legacy. TREMENDOUSLY.

I haven't changed my tune, just my tone. Obviously you can't read even straight facts (note you accused me of crashing the sim three times when no such thing happened nor was said) so it is clear hyperbole is beyond your grasp.

I enjoy the give and take of a fun debate and I can get wrapped up in it as much as the next guy. However, you, Mr. G200, ALWAYS cross the line. This thread is no exception.

So, either discuss the airplane or I'm done here until the next Legacy bashing session.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I have always said it was okay. But it is inferior to the Legacy. TREMENDOUSLY.

I haven't changed my tune, just my tone. Obviously you can't read even straight facts (note you accused me of crashing the sim three times when no such thing happened nor was said) so it is clear hyperbole is beyond your grasp.

So, either discuss the airplane or I'm done here until the next Legacy bashing session.

Id say thats a good idea on your end......

 

[LegacyDriver]

Id say thats a good idea on your end......

And I'd say, "Thanks for the advice but you can keep it."

Nobody takes these boards seriously any way. Most of the people are a bunch of pot-stirring trolls like yourself with nothing better to do than poke people with sticks.

I think we would all be happier if you went back over to the "other" board and stayed there.

 

[LegacyDriver]

LD-

I have flown both airframes you speak of. I was one of the first to fly the 145 here in the US so I was pretty much a test pilot on the thing. Would you like the laundry list of everything that was a shortcoming on the airplane or the actual system failures I had. I really enjoyed climbing through 10,000' accelerating through 250 knots and around 290-300 kts, getting the sweet rumble in your lower back of the non existent tailplane flutter.

Point is, don't bull$hit a bull$hitter. No airframe is perfect.

One of the first to fly. Again, using *EARLY* versions to bash the current ones. No new airplane is without its bugs. Look at the 7X. It is going to have all sorts of problems for the first little while because it is a new airplane.

There's no tail flutter on the EMB unless you push it to Mach 0.92ish.

Don't try to out BS me, sir.

No airframe is perfect, but the Embraer gets the important stuff absolutely right.

 

[LJ45]

challenger 300, can't make them fast enough :uzi:

:beer:

 

[54fighting]

One of the first to fly. Again, using *EARLY* versions to bash the current ones. No new airplane is without its bugs.

My point is, when it first came out, it was a big POS. It is the original 180 jet. But after numerous mods, etc it turned out to be pretty decent. The Legacy is a corporate version of the 135/145. I would hope by that point all the bugs were worked out. You are making it sound like the Legacy is a brand new, off the shelf design that is flawless....far from the truth.

There's no tail flutter on the EMB unless you push it to Mach 0.92ish.

That was a very well publicized problem with the airframe. One that Embraer refused to acknowledge. However, take a look at the saw teeth they put up underneath the horizontal stab, they put those teeth there for a reason. Don't try to tell me what has or hasn't happened to me flying that plane.

Don't try to out BS me, sir.

From reading your posts, I don't think there is any danger in that.

 

[LegacyDriver]

My point is, when it first came out, it was a big POS. It is the original 180 jet. But after numerous mods, etc it turned out to be pretty decent. The Legacy is a corporate version of the 135/145. I would hope by that point all the bugs were worked out. You are making it sound like the Legacy is a brand new, off the shelf design that is flawless....far from the truth.

They have worked out all the bugs---like ten years ago for the RJ. Legacy Bugs were minor at worst and were fixed five years ago.


I never said it was "brand new.". I said it was more modern and ergonomic than anything I've seen from Dassault. The plane is pretty close to flawless in part because it is not "brand new.". It has 12 million fleet hours under its airframe design. It is rugged as all getout and a joy to fly.

That was a very well publicized problem with the airframe. One that Embraer refused to acknowledge. However, take a look at the saw teeth they put up underneath the horizontal stab, they put those teeth there for a reason. Don't try to tell me what has or hasn't happened to me flying that plane.

Well, you are either full of beans or we are talking about different things. The "flutter problem" was caused by anti-ice exhaust out of the horizontal stab causing vibration. It was *not* flutter. It was, however, fixed. Some 11.8 million flight hours have passed since this fictitious "flutter" problem without a single case of actual tail flutter in the EMB fleet.

From reading your posts, I don't think there is any danger in that.

I'm finding it amazing that some of you admit to reading my posts yet you manage to get everything twisted up between your eyes/brain and the keyboard.

 

[54fighting]

I said it was more modern and ergonomic than anything I've seen from Dassault.

You can't be serious with that statement can you? Primus 1000 still, right?

 

[LegacyDriver]

We are talking total package here: systems, reliability, ease of mx, automation, redundancy, comfort...

Primus 1000 isn't the most advanced avionics system in the world, but it is a *true* glass cockpit unlike the 50EX Frankenstein panel.

The EASy Falcons have Epic architecture and the Legacy doesn't. I don't know how much difference it would make for me doing my job. (I had integrated EFB in the Legacy that did everything I would want from an EASy given what I know about it.) However, given a choice between Epic and systems redundancy I will take the latter.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

The EASy Falcons have Epic architecture and the Legacy doesn't. I don't know how much difference it would make for me doing my job. (I had integrated EFB in the Legacy that did everything I would want from an EASy given what I know about it.) However, given a choice between Epic and systems redundancy I will take the latter.

all ya can say is...WOW....

Yup, everyone here sure does "twist up" and misunderstand your posts!

Nah....keep that EASy....I have an EFB!

:erm:

The hits just keep coming LD!

 

[hgi2006]

They have worked out all the bugs---like ten years ago for the RJ. Legacy Bugs were minor at worst and were fixed five years ago.

My BS detector gets pegged on HIGH when someone tells me anyone has "worked out ALL the bugs." Not Dassault, not Gulfstream, not EMB can work out ALL the bugs of an airframe. To say that tells me we're very likely getting a bias viewpoint on the Legacy.

I never said it was "brand new.". I said it was more modern and ergonomic than anything I've seen from Dassault. The plane is pretty close to flawless in part because it is not "brand new.". It has 12 million fleet hours under its airframe design. It is rugged as all getout and a joy to fly.

I've done a demo in the Legacy and as you can see, I've flown the Falcons. To say the Legacy is more modern and ergonomic as compared to the Dassault products would be false.

First off, the Primus 1000 came out to the market in 1992. The Proline 4, which the 50EX is equipped with, came out to the market in 1995. The right there throws out the "modern" claim.

As far as ergonomics are concerned, I fail to see it. And it all starts with that ridiculous yoke.

Oh, and the Legacy is not anything close to flawless. Not only does it have older avionics, it flies slow, uses several hundred feet more runway to takeoff, and is limited to FL410. There's nothing modern about any of the above stated facts. A Hawker (built in the 1960's) has equivalent altitude and speed capabilities. This is not to say the 50EX is modern either, but it's certainly more so than the Legacy.

 

[LegacyDriver]

My BS detector gets pegged on HIGH when someone tells me anyone has "worked out ALL the bugs."

Are there any glaring bugs in the Legacy that I'm unaware of????

Embraer has more hours on its fleet than Gulfstream or Dassault. If your pals at G and D havent worked out all their problems it is in part because their stuff is based on ancient history and in part because they don't have the fleet hours ans cycles the EMB does. This is a huge advantage. When you have 1300 planes flying 10 hours a day all over the world it really irons out the kinks.

Youre right though. I guess they haven't worked out *every* bug as the dispatch reliability for Embraer is 99.967 percent and not 100 percent. Still, beats the tar out of everyone else out there by a good margin.

I've done a demo in the Legacy and as you can see, I've flown the Falcons. To say the Legacy is more modern and ergonomic as compared to the Dassault products would be false.

You did a demo. Wow. That makes you the Legacy expert doesn't it? NOT.

the 50 for example is cramped compared to the EMB. The cockpit is tiny and uncomfortable by comparison to the huge Legacy cockpit. Ditto the cabin. The overhead panel and lighting system are light years ahead of the 50.

First off, the Primus 1000 came out to the market in 1992. The Proline 4, which the 50EX is equipped with, came out to the market in 1995. The right there throws out the "modern" claim.

Is there something the 4 does better than the Primus/FMZ? I have yet to find it. (I will admit that coupled VNAV is a nice thing to have but not a real necessity. I give the Falcon a point for that.)

As far as ergonomics are concerned, I fail to see it. And it all starts with that ridiculous yoke.

You fail to see it because you never *flew* the airplane. It is the easiest jet in the world.


The yoke rocks. Once you use it you wont like anything else.

Oh, and the Legacy is not anything close to flawless. Not only does it have older avionics, it flies slow, uses several hundred feet more runway to takeoff, and is limited to FL410. There's nothing modern about any of the above stated facts. A Hawker (built in the 1960's) has equivalent altitude and speed capabilities. This is not to say the 50EX is modern either, but it's certainly more so than the Legacy.

At MTOW roughly 380' more runway. That's negligible. With 8 pax runway lengths are nearly identical.


It flies a .80M which is not slow unless you are comparing it to a Citation X.

FL410 is an arbitrary limit to keep inspection intervals long/wide. The plane has plenty of wing and engine to go higher. (On a hot heavy departure to altitude the Legacy can go to 410 and accelerate hours before the 50EX can.)

The systems in the EMB are decades more advanced than Dassault's....

 

[hgi2006]

You did a demo. Wow. That makes you the Legacy expert doesn't it? NOT.

I never said that it did.

Is there something the 4 does better than the Primus/FMZ? I have yet to find it. (I will admit that coupled VNAV is a nice thing to have but not a real necessity. I give the Falcon a point for that.)

Well, you said the Legacy was modern. So, I pointed out that actually the 50EX has a more modern avionics package. VNAV is a safety benefit, as well as the standard for corporate aircraft. Hell, even the Citation Mustangs have VNAV!

The yoke rocks. Once you use it you wont like anything else.

The yoke is ridiculous... I have a bit of time in a Hawker, and never grew used to the yoke.

At MTOW roughly 380' more runway. That's negligible. With 8 pax runway lengths are nearly identical.

It's only negligible if you have 380' of extra runway hanging around. I'd rather have a BFL 380' shorter than another aircraft, as would most of us here.

It flies a .80M which is not slow unless you are comparing it to a Citation X.

Or a 50EX, or a Falcon 2000, or a G-IV, or a Lear. Ah.. you get the idea.

The Legacy has a Mmo of Mach .80. Thus, you're not flying around at Mach .80. It's evident to me why the salesman at EMB like you (you exaggerate), yet some others in the EMB community think otherwise of you.

In closing, the Legacy is a great corporate shuttle, I'll give it that. But it's a regional airliner, not a corporate aircraft. EMB missed the boat on many things in developing the Legacy, if they planned on making it a true corporate contender.