Falcon 50ex

[c140]

wow LegacyDriver you do know the Legacy....

How is the market for finding a legacy?
What about a falcon 2000 that has been mentioned a few times?

The bossman could afford a BBJ if he wanted but he is new to the aviation world and is feeling it out slowly.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Ask anyone and they will tell you that while I may not be the most popular guy on here I definitely know that airplane. (Not so much now as I haven't flown it in two years, but I still remember a lot.)

I saw one of Flight Options LX airplanes for sale. Was I think $21M.

If he gets the Legacy drop me a line and I'll fill you in on all the gouge.

It's a great airplane. Easy to find one for sale... The wait on new ones isn't too bad. You won't be disappointed. The Legacy 600 is now advertising 3,400 NM range as well. Not bad.

Falcon 2000 I don't know. If you get one make sure it is an EX. Like all Falcons the 2000 is not a good crosswind performer. Watch out.

 

[G100driver]

LD, when did you get typed in 2000?

 

[LegacyDriver]

LD, when did you get typed in 2000?

Never. Doesn't matter as my point is still valid. Legacy has far *FAR* more x-wind margin than any Falcon.

 

[G100driver]

I will not argue that ... I was just wondering if you added a type to your cert.

But more importantly, are LD flight crews still getting payed regional wages, or have they raised the bar to that of Falcon?

 

[LegacyDriver]

I will not argue that ... I was just wondering if you added a type to your cert.

But more importantly, are LD flight crews still getting payed regional wages, or have they raised the bar to that of Falcon?

My previous Legacy operator employer pays about $5000 more per year than I make on the Falcon 50 at my present employer.

And that's probably about twice what an RJ driver makes.

I have a friend who made $201,000 NET last year flying the Legacy. Not sure of any Falcon jobs that do that.

Frankly that doesn't matter any way as my chances of getting a violation or an incident are much higher in a Faclon than an Embraer. All the promised salary in the world is no good to a pilot with no license. The Legacy is safer, tougher, and more capable where it counts than a Falcon is because it is derived from an airplane that has to work every time.

Hey Rum, having any luck with that gear problem on your Falcon? How many days are you gonna be stuck?

 

[Kingairrick]

Narrow cabin????? You think the Legacy cabin is NARROW???

Legacy Cabin is probably twice as wide. It sure as heck is up front. Man, what a warped view if you think the Legacy is narrow compared to a 50! HA HA HA!


Legacy beats the hell out of a Falcon. The only thing a Falcon has going for it is engine out climb.

50EX:

- Burns the same gas as the EMB and at max. payload has shorter range.
- More expensive to maintain and *ALWAYS* broken. The thing is just old. If I tried to do in 50EX what we did in the Legacy we'd be in a service center within three days.
- No FADEC.
- Smaller. (If you're a French midget it's perfect for you. Me, I'm ready to kill myself after about 2 hours in it.)
- Louder (You think a Legacy is loud, try a Falcon. The gaspers will make you deaf.)
- Environmental sucks. Overheat the ducts... Always feel cold at altitude because the windows don't have any conditioned air blowing on them like the EMB has. (EMB surrounds you with conditioned air and puts out way more on a hot day than Falcon, also.)
- X-Wind Performance is abysmal.
- No foot pedal steering.
- Non-linear tiller. Ridiculous.
- Under-ruddered.
- APU not useable in flight.
- Half-assed glass cockpit.
- DV Window Weak. (Someone breaks the heater about every fourth time they close it.)
- WSI capability terrible. Reception bad.
- Draining potable water a nightmare (vs. pulling one lever on an EMB).
- Baggage Compartment - TINY. I don't know what they think will fit in there that can meet the weight limit. You can barely get enough bags in there for four people much less 8. (Legacy baggage compartment frickin' HUMONGOUS.)
- Fuel Gauges SUCK (No totalizer and always off by 500# one way or the other.)
- Fuel system a clusterhump.
- Electrical system (see above).
- Climb at ALT not that great. Legacy actually climbs better from the 30s on up.
- No Ice Detection.
- No Trailing Link Gear.
- Airplane dumps fuel all over the ramp when vented for fueling.
- Ergonomics particularly night lighting horrendous. You get some lights dim and other lights bright no matter how you try to adjust them. Also reflects off the glass which is just annoying as heck.
- No EICAS
- AOM and AFM are ridiculous. They are as many volumes as an encyclopedia and they tell you NOTHING about the airplane.

As a buddy of mine said about the 50EX, "They may as well put a tail wheel on it and get it over with."

The Embraer is 1000 times more durable, far more comfortable, reliable, and redundant. The 50EX has an extra motor but as often as they like to crap out (listening to the people at FSI you'd think this happens 100 x a day) I'd say it probably needs it.

MTOW runway length for 50EX is like 5,570' vs. 5,980' for the EMB. Not that big a difference.

As for the noise... The only time the EMB is noisy is above 300 knots with all the doors in the cabin open. You keep the galley and cockpit doors closed and it is fine. The 50EX is loud everytime you push the thrust levers up, and I don't care what anyone says, I've yet to see an airplane that's really "quiet" above 300 KIAS.

Yes the Falcon will do 370 KIAS, but I don't consider that useful for much other than burning gas.

Yes the 50 has coupled VNAV. But ergonomically it is horrible, cramped, and uncomfortable.

Unfortunately, EMBs have over 2000# of titanium in the spars, wings, and pylons. The price has rocketed through the roof on that and the asking price for the Legacy 600 is now over $25M. A Falcon 50EX is pretty competitive on acquisition cost at that price.

Having flown both extensively I would pick the Legacy over the Falcon every single time.

Time has passed the Falcon by.

As a buddy of mine who used to sell them said, the most common Legacy customer was an ex-50 owner. The Legacy is a great airplane. Hopelessly underrated.

Embraer Legacy not perfect and I can give you all her faults...but she abuses Falcon 50EX like the ghetto.

Oh well, the paycheck is bigger on the 50EX I guess...

I almost never post here but as you are leading someone down the wrong path, I can't help it.

1st. It's clear your 50 is a piece of crap. Ours has none of the issues you are speaking of (gaspers, dv window heat, etc..)
2nd. It's clear from your comments that you are in a straight 50, not an EX.(rudder, electrical sytem, fuel system, totalizer, etc...)
3rd. The Leagacy in our hangar (3 months old) has an abysmal dispatch rate. We have failed to dispatch once in the last 1600 hours of flight time. They fail average of twice a month.

c140-Legacy Driver is just a little biased
Price isn't the only reason the airplanes aren't as popular. Do research on the airplanes. You may find that a Legacy works best for your mission, you may find, as most do, that another airplane works better. Hangar space, for one, comes to mind as a biggy...
As always, MHO

 

[Floyd94]

My previous Legacy operator employer pays about $5000 more per year than I make on the Falcon 50 at my present employer.

And that's probably about twice what an RJ driver makes.

I have a friend who made $201,000 NET last year flying the Legacy. Not sure of any Falcon jobs that do that.

Frankly that doesn't matter any way as my chances of getting a violation or an incident are much higher in a Faclon than an Embraer. All the promised salary in the world is no good to a pilot with no license. The Legacy is safer, tougher, and more capable where it counts than a Falcon is because it is derived from an airplane that has to work every time.

$201,000 net would be great if you like living in the middle east. Who makes that kind of cash in the US? Im sure there are falcon jobs in the middle east that pay just as much if not more.

Also, how does the airplane increase your chances for violations??? This makes no sense at all, but whatever floats your boat.

Ive flown both EMB and Falcons and would much rather fly the DA products. They're a proven product that have been around much longer than any "taco jet".

 

[LegacyDriver]

I almost never post here but as you are leading someone down the wrong path, I can't help it.

I've laid out nothing but facts.

1st. It's clear your 50 is a piece of crap. Ours has none of the issues you are speaking of (gaspers, dv window heat, etc..)

Piece of crap? We have two of the last five built in addition to three others. Are they *ALL* pieces of crap?

2nd. It's clear from your comments that you are in a straight 50, not an EX.(rudder, electrical sytem, fuel system, totalizer, etc...)

Oh really? When did the EX get a fuel totalizer?

And you have none of those issues? You don't pee fuel on the ramp when you vent it? Your airplane has an EICAS? Really? You got ice detectors? Nice. You can use APU in flight? You have a linear tiller? Footpedal steering? Outstanding X-wind performance? Please.

Come on now. **BS Flag**

All five of ours are EXes, BTW.

3rd. The Leagacy in our hangar (3 months old) has an abysmal dispatch rate. We have failed to dispatch once in the last 1600 hours of flight time. They fail average of twice a month.

Obviously they don't know how to operate it then because I've *NEVER* heard of *ANYONE* with that experience. You got a tail number? I'll verify it.

I flew almost 4,000 hours split about equally between ERJ and Legacy. I failed to dispatch ONCE in an ERJ (NEVER in a Legacy) and I could have gone. My F/O expressed the *SLIGHTEST* bit of discomfort and I said, "That's it then," and called MX.

c140-Legacy Driver is just a little biased

No, just realistic. Falcons are overrated POSes and I'm not afraid to say so. The Legacy is a great airplane. People just don't feel like taking the heat to say it. Well I don't mind. I've got thick skin.

Price isn't the only reason the airplanes aren't as popular. Do research on the airplanes. You may find that a Legacy works best for your mission, you may find, as most do, that another airplane works better. Hangar space, for one, comes to mind as a biggy...
As always, MHO

I do agree with you here in part that another plane may work better for your mission, but "MOST" people just let their egos get in the way. An airplane is a BUSINESS tool. How it looks on the ramp isn't as important as what it costs.

The Embraer has sold nearly 150 airplanes in only about 6 years (compared to the 50 the Legacy has sold nearly 50% as many airframes in only about 20% of the time). That's quite impressive when one considers it entered a crowded market right after 9/11/2001.

The airplane is *AWESOME*. Don't let anyone kid you.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Ive flown both EMB and Falcons and would much rather fly the DA products. They're a proven product that have been around much longer than any "taco jet".

A proven jet that's been around much longer??? How does that matter? Being around for calendar pages doesn't prove as much as time in the air. The Falcon 50 would *NEVER* hold up under the workload the Legacy took at my last job. The Falcon *would* spend more time in the hangar than the Legacy though.

In terms of calendar pages the 145 series has been around twelve years. The EMB-120 and EMB-110 were proven performers in their day, too. This isn't Embraer's first rodeo.

The Embraer 145 fleet now has TEN MILLION hours and counting and somewhere around 1,350 airframes in service with no fatalities aboard them. How many hours does the Falcon fleet have, in particular the 50EX?

See, that's precisely the problem with the Falcon. They've been around a long time and they rely on OLD technology and OLD ideas. The Embraer got its start in 1996. The Falcon is based on 1970.

The Embraer beats hell out of Falcon and anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking rationally, IMHO.

To each their own.

 

[Kingairrick]

I've laid out nothing but facts.

Uhh:
More expensive to maintain and *ALWAYS* broken. The thing is just old. If I tried to do in 50EX what we did in the Legacy we'd be in a service center within three days.Opinion, not fact.
If you're a French midget it's perfect for you. Me, I'm ready to kill myself after about 2 hours in it.Opinion, not fact.
Louder (You think a Legacy is loud, try a Falcon. The gaspers will make you deaf.)Opinion, not fact.
- Environmental sucks. Overheat the ducts... Always feel cold at altitude Opinion, not fact.
X-Wind Performance is abysmal.Opinion, not fact(closest to true though)
No foot pedal steering Fact, but the negativity of it is an opinion. I don't miss pedal steering (My Opinion)
Non-linear tiller. Ridiculous Fact, but the negativity of it is an opinion. I like it that way as do many others...different stokes..
Under-ruddered Opinion, not fact.
DV Window Weak. (Someone breaks the heater about every fourth time they close it.Opinion, not fact. You're the only one I've ever heard of on this one.
Draining potable water a nightmare Opinion, not fact
Baggage Compartment - TINY Opinion, not fact. I've never filled it up...
Fuel Gauges SUCK Opinion, not fact
Fuel system a clusterhump Opinion, not fact ???How could it be any simpler?
Electrical system (see above)Opinion, not fact ???How could it be any simpler?(see above)
No Ice Detection Incorrect, (it's the little red light on the center window)
No Trailing Link Gear Fact, but the negativity of it is an opinion. Some of us don't need it:blush:
Ergonomics particularly night lighting horrendous. You get some lights dim and other lights bright no matter how you try to adjust them. Also reflects off the glass which is just annoying as heck.Opinion, not fact
AOM and AFM are ridiculous. They are as many volumes as an encyclopedia and they tell you NOTHING about the airplane Opinion, not fact, and incorrect.
The Embraer is 1000 times more durable, far more comfortable, reliable, and redundant. Opinion, not fact unless you can show me the data to back that one up...
But ergonomically it is horrible, cramped, and uncomfortable. Opinion, not fact
Time has passed the Falcon by.Opinion, not fact

I'll be the first to admit that Falcons have faults. But dude, step away from the kool-aid. It's all about looks anyway, and 50s are beautiful airplanes.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Regarding the pathetic "ICE DETECTOR" on the Falcon (what a joke). It's a blue light. It sucks.

The cockpit *IS* small. Maybe you think it is large because you flew a Pitts.

How could the fuel system be simpler? See an EMB.

How could the electrical system be simpler? See an EMB.

Fuel gauges suck. Fact. How can you say that +/- 500# is anything but lame? Sorry but my standards are higher than yours I guess.

Draining potable water is excruciating at best and good luck filling it back up. Like I said, this is an absolute fact. Draining water in a Falcon is torture. Takes half an hour. EMB - PULL. Done. Literally faster than I can type it.

EMB is absolutely more durable. Dispatch numbers for the fleet prove it.

DV Window heater breaks all the time. That is a fact and I'm sure RUM and CRJ can back that one up. Every other time I get in a 50 the DV window heater isn't working because the pin in the handle got bent. I slammed EMB windows shut every leg for six years and never had any problems. So *FACT*. Maybe you just never open yours.

Noise. The Noise level on the Legacy has been proven to be the same or quieter than the 50EX. (A friend of mine did the initial sound proofing on the Legacy and I've seen his data. The newer ones are even quieter now and there is an even better noise reduction technology in the works. Still, at FL410 and 260 KIAS you don't hear anything in either airplane--save the gaspers on the 50. Gawd.) The gaspers on the 50 roar like a freight train. Most pilots I know close them because they are too loud.


Baggage compartment is tiny. That's a *FACT*. If I have more than three people I'm sweating. Maybe you fly around one rich guy by himself with no bags and thus the TINY baggage compartment doesn't bother you. So be it. The fact is the thing is small.

Night lighting sucks. Maybe you like bright lights glaring in your face and reflecting off the glass at night but that doesn't make my assertion any less true.

I can go on but why bother?

The 50 is old. It is an ergonomic headache. It is a systems cluster. It is out of production in part because of these things.

Goodbye 50.

Hello Legacy.

 

[G100driver]

Frankly that doesn't matter any way as my chances of getting a violation or an incident are much higher in a Faclon than an Embraer.

How does an airframe get you more violations

 

[LegacyDriver]

When it has a higher workload than is reasonably necessary to do the job...

A crappy tiller...

No rudder...

A taxi light that at night is as bright as a candle...

I can go on but I won't.

If I ever run one of these things off the side of the runway (or scrape a wingtip) in a crosswind because of its horrible rudder authority (and minimal wingtip clearance) I am betting that's a violation.

I can only say this: I could take an Embraer any place, any time, under just about any condition you can imagine and was never afraid of it biting me in the ass because it is built not to. With a Falcon I am geared up for it every second of the way even on days that a 152 would laugh at. (Maybe that's a good thing in some strange fashion--you'll never see me with my guard down or acting complacent in a Dassault!!!!!!)

 

[Kingairrick]

I understand that you get all hard and woody over the jungle jet. I think it's great that you dig it so much. But I don't think it's the answer to everyone's mission. Many seem to agree with that opinion.
Do you see much less childlike it seems when you put "I believe" in front of your statements?

 

[LegacyDriver]

I understand that you get all hard and woody over the jungle jet. I think it's great that you dig it so much. But I don't think it's the answer to everyone's mission. Many seem to agree with that opinion.
Do you see much less childlike it seems when you put "I believe" in front of your statements?

Many also seem to agree with the opinion that the Falcon is not the answer to everyone's mission. (Think of how obvious that statement is. NO airplane is the answer to everyone's mission.)

This guy was asking for alternatives to the 50EX and a previous poster suggested the Legacy. Obviously I am not the only one who thinks that the Legacy is a viable/superior option to the Dassault.

We can agree to disagree on this one. I think the Legacy rocks. That's no secret. You don't. That's okay by me. But don't pretend the 50EX is the greatest airplane ever built because it is FAR *FAR* from it. For my money both airplanes are compromises, but the EMB compromises are the ones that make my job easier and my passengers more comfortable.

The Legacy isn't the fastest, the highest flying, or the biggest, but it is a remarkable blend of extremely good qualities. It is a pilot's airplane and my experience is the people in the back who pay for it love it. Obviously not everyone can be happy with an airplane and the Legacy is no exception. But again, in my experience it is overwhelmingly popular with crews, pax, mx, management, and ownership.

 

[rumrnr78]

Legacy- Still in KBNA. Mechanics made it here so hope it is just a prox switch or easy fix. Chat with you later if your still speaking to me .

My vote is still for the Challenger 300! Flex should be putting some "lightly " used ones on the market, if not all ready.

Fly safe- Rum

PS- And yes, I will back Legacy up that the DV window can be a bugger and we have had some problems with it. Use caution closing! Also, with the 50EX being my 3rd jet, I can say it is by far the most demanding and can really bite you in the arse.

 

[CRJCA]

Rumrnnr and Legacy are right. However, all three of us come from airline backgrounds and are used to rugged airplanes. For my money, I'd still prefer a bigger cockpit airplane, but Im a creature of comfort. Falcon definitely has a market and presents a good airplane. But that being said this is America, everyone has their own set of preferences. Oh by the way, where is that 50EX totalizer? Man i could really use that. Havnt seen it.

 

[rumrnr78]

LegacyDriver- were circling the wagons for ya!:laugh: Rum

 

[LegacyDriver]

HAHAHAH you guys are a giant pair of tools. You better put your fire retardant underwear on pronto. INCOMING!!!!